KORG PA800: are FX parameters controllable via MIDI?

[looo]

Hello everyone,

i own Korg PA800 and can't get FXs to be set up from external MIDI-applications. From provided vague manuals it turnes out that FX parameters can be set up via MIDI by means of system exclusive messages. I recorded some test piece in "quick record" mode in which FXs parameters were arranged in some way according the selected style' preferences and saved it as MIDI file.
When i load that MIDI file onto one of PA800 built-in sequencers and play it back, FX are set up properly and sound is OK. But when i play the same file in any external application Korg sounds differently, because its FX parameters remain unaltered.
I think i've done everything to ensure sysexes to reach Korg: cleared all MIDI filters in Global->MIDI->Filters, tried different MIDI setups and modes (style play, song play etc). I've made also sure that system exlusives are really conveyed from PC to Korg in MIDI-OX application. Now i'm really perplexed as Korg seem to ignore FX setup messages.

With Yamaha PSR no such problems were encountered ever every parameter was accessible via MIDI.

Any suggestions?
Tnanx

[Rob Sherratt]

i own Korg PA800 and can't get FXs to be set up from external MIDI-applications. From provided vague manuals it turnes out that FX parameters can be set up via MIDI by means of system exclusive messages. I recorded some test piece in "quick record" mode in which FXs parameters were arranged in some way according the selected style' preferences and saved it as MIDI file. When i load that MIDI file onto one of PA800 built-in sequencers and play it back, FX are set up properly and sound is OK. But when i play the same file in any external application Korg sounds differently, because its FX parameters remain unaltered.

The Pa800 normally filters out certain control messages from incoming MIDI tracks played on external sequencers. However you can override this. Try firstly, opn the "Global -> MIDI - Midi In Channels" page, set the track = Control, for the track(s) that contains the NRPN values for manipulating EFX. If that doesn't work then set the track = Global. Dont forget to do a Write Global - MIDI setup afterwards. Please let me know if this solved the problem?

[looo]

The Pa800 normally filters out certain control messages from incoming MIDI tracks played on external sequencers. However you can override this. Try firstly, opn the "Global -> MIDI - Midi In Channels" page, set the track = Control, for the track(s) that contains the NRPN values for manipulating EFX. If that doesn't work then set the track = Global. Dont forget to do a Write Global - MIDI setup afterwards. Please let me know if this solved the problem?

Thanx for quick reply, Rob!
According Midi implementation chart EFX parameters are manipulated by means of System Exclusive messages rather than NRPNs, and that's really so! I can even single them out in the entire MIDI stream, the problem is that Korg seems to take them into consideration only provided it plays the MIDI file in either of built-in sequencers and totally ignores them being sent over USB-MIDI!
As SYSEX messages are conveyed beyond any MIDI tracks i don't see what can be modified in the "Global-MIDI-Midi In Channels" page to solve this problem.

[Rob Sherratt]

The Pa800 normally filters out certain control messages from incoming MIDI tracks played on external sequencers. However you can override this. Try firstly, opn the "Global -> MIDI - Midi In Channels" page, set the track = Control, for the track(s) that contains the NRPN values for manipulating EFX. If that doesn't work then set the track = Global. Dont forget to do a Write Global - MIDI setup afterwards. Please let me know if this solved the problem?

Thanx for quick reply, Rob! According Midi implementation chart EFX parameters are manipulated by means of System Exclusive messages rather than NRPNs, and that's really so! I can even single them out in the entire MIDI stream, the problem is that Korg seems to take them into consideration only provided it plays the MIDI file in either of built-in sequencers and totally ignores them being sent over USB-MIDI! As SYSEX messages are conveyed beyond any MIDI tracks i don't see what can be modified in the "Global-MIDI-Midi In Channels" page to solve this problem.

Hi Looo,

Good point, as you can see Sysex is beyond my abilaity Have you tried the following on a conventional per track basis, before going down the SysEx route?

CC12 and CC13 FX controller messages.
CC71 filter resonance
CC74 filter cutoff
CC91 A/C filter send level
CC93 B/D filter send level

The Pa800 manual says that each EFX unit can be controlled by a "Modulating Track" which is set up on the Effects: FX Select Page for whichever mode the keyboard is in (Song Play, Style Play, Sequencer etc). The manual says "You can modulate an effect parameter with a MIDI message generated by a physical controller". I wonder whether this is the purpose of the CC12 and CC13 messages?

[looo]

Hi Looo,

Good point, as you can see Sysex is beyond my abilaity Have you tried the following on a conventional per track basis, before going down the SysEx route?

CC12 and CC13 FX controller messages.
CC71 filter resonance
CC74 filter cutoff
CC91 A/C filter send level
CC93 B/D filter send level

The Pa800 manual says that each EFX unit can be controlled by a "Modulating Track" which is set up on the Effects: FX Select Page for whichever mode the keyboard is in (Song Play, Style Play, Sequencer etc). The manual says "You can modulate an effect parameter with a MIDI message generated by a physical controller". I wonder whether this is the purpose of the CC12 and CC13 messages?

SYSEXes can easily be viewed in the applications such as Cakewalk and tracked down in realtime in MIDI-OX.
As i wrote before, effects are explained pretty vagualy in the manual, so i still have many questions regarding them among which CC12 and CC13 controllers' purpose. Its quite possible that these controllers modulate effect parameters, unfortunately manual does not put it bluntly. CC71 and CC74 control filters, not EFX; CC91 and CC93 regulate EFX levels for each track but have nothing in common with EFX setup. To say simplier: before manipulating EFX with controllers 91, 93 (and probably 12, 13) one must set EFX parameters like FX type and parameters unique for each type(described in "Advanced edit").
Midi Implementation chart says:
"...system exclusive...Includes Inquiry and Master Volume messages, FX settings, Quarter tone settings, GM mode ON". When Korg creates midi file based on a style ("quick record" mode) it inserts all the necessary SYSEX inside. If enter "event edit" mode and choose "master" track, one can see deciphered EFX setup messages concerning effects although in very simplified general form. Actually no "master" track does exist in MIDI protocol, it is just a form in which Korg represents selected setup messages.
I primarely wonder why doesn't Korg correctly reproduce its own MIDI-output played back from external sequencer while everything seems OK when Korg internal sequenecers used? The root of the problem is clear - ignoring of SYSEX conveyed over USB-MIDI even when all the filters in Global->Midi->filters are cleared but why does this happen (and what for?) is a secret to me.

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Looo,

Regarding the problem where SysEx messages are apparently not forwarded when they come via MIDI over USB. Does the same problem arise if you use a conventional MIDI In cable? Also given that Korg seem to assign their SysEx messages to a "master track" I wonder whether you need to set all MIDI In channels to "Global" or "Control" just to make sure it is not a track filter preventing the SysEx message getting through. Do you have information describing the protocol for SysEx messages to the Pa keyboard? Is there any documentation produced by Korg on this anywhere? Are you sure your SysEx messages have the right checksum? How do you know?

Anyway, I'm quite happy to be able to change user styles and performances via MIDI (which pick up the corresponding EFX types) and at sometime in the future I will play around with using MIDI controller messages to dynamically modulate the EFX parameters that are supported by Korg and documented in the Advanced Edit guide. I see that there are about 20 MIDI Controller values that can be assigned to control various EFX parameters. For example you can use a MIDI Controller to sweep the cutoff frequency or center frequency of various Filters. You can use a MIDI controller to change the LFO speed for the Wah effect, and you can turn Wah on and off via MIDI.

[looo]

Hi Looo,

Regarding the problem where SysEx messages are apparently not forwarded when they come via MIDI over USB. Does the same problem arise if you use a conventional MIDI In cable? Also given that Korg seem to assign their SysEx messages to a "master track" I wonder whether you need to set all MIDI In channels to "Global" or "Control" just to make sure it is not a track filter preventing the SysEx message getting through. Do you have information describing the protocol for SysEx messages to the Pa keyboard? Is there any documentation produced by Korg on this anywhere? Are you sure your SysEx messages have the right checksum? How do you know?

Hello, Rob, i really appreciate your contribution into this discussion!

I 've got no experience with conventional MIDI cable as have no such one at hand, but from my previous experience with this kind of stuff may assert that USB-MIDI emulates 100% of conventional MIDI functionality. So should that's not so in the Korg PA world, that'd be major bug, but i doubt that to be true.
As to "Control" and "Global"...We all know that MIDI protocol defines up to 16 channels per MIDI port, each of the channels may be used by sound generating events such as "note on", "note off" etc. If Korg PA is used as full-fledged MIDI tone-generator (that's what i'm really struggling for) it must be able to receive sound-generating events on each of 16 channels and there's no free MIDI IN channel to dedicate to control purposes without loosing multitimbrality.
And i'd like to point out once again: SYSEX by definition is not bound to MIDI IN channels at all, it's totally independent and all necessary information about destination channel(s) (if any) carries inside its body. Concepts of "master" or "control" tracks implemented by Korg pertains to representation only.
Alas, i don't have any documentation about SYSEX implementation in PA series in addition to those bundled with the keyboard or at available at korgpa.com site. But even that scarce info we have - aforementioned Midi Implementation chart - gives me good ground to expect EFX to be set up by SYSEX messages over MIDI!
Regarding the checksums etc i have to notice that not all of the SYSEX formats use them, usually chekcums are used in "bulk dump". As i can see, Korg uses both bulk dumps and conventional SYSEX formats. By the way it would not cause problems ro me to calculate cheksums manually if needed.
Well, recurring to the subjet of sysex integrity, it's easy to rule out any supposition about broken sysexes if recall that its not me who creates MIDI file that don't work properly! MIDI-file was created by Korg itself and works fine if played back by either of KORG onboard sequencers, EFX are set up perfectly, "Menu->effects" page shows in realtime EFX parameters alterations. I wish the same idyll for external software as well

Anyway, I'm quite happy to be able to change user styles and performances via MIDI (which pick up the corresponding EFX types) and at sometime in the future I will play around with using MIDI controller messages to dynamically modulate the EFX parameters that are supported by Korg and documented in the Advanced Edit guide. I see that there are about 20 MIDI Controller values that can be assigned to control various EFX parameters. For example you can use a MIDI Controller to sweep the cutoff frequency or center frequency of various Filters. You can use a MIDI controller to change the LFO speed for the Wah effect, and you can turn Wah on and off via MIDI.

Yes, modulating EFX parameters seem to work fine, i've tried LFO speed modulation and it really worked fine.

[jg::]

Hi looo, and welcome.

I think you glossed over Rob's original reply a little too quickly. As he said, sysex messages are filtered out from MIDI IN by the default Global setup. You just need to find the correct page to uncheck this filter. Sorry, I'm not in front of the Pa800 at the moment, but you'll definitely find a MIDI Filter page there in Global mode.

Good luck!

jg::

[looo]

Hi looo, and welcome.

I think you glossed over Rob's original reply a little too quickly. As he said, sysex messages are filtered out from MIDI IN by the default Global setup. You just need to find the correct page to uncheck this filter. Sorry, I'm not in front of the Pa800 at the moment, but you'll definitely find a MIDI Filter page there in Global mode.

Good luck!

jg::

Hi, jg!

As i wrote in my original message, i tried differerent MIDI setups, every time removing all MIDI-IN filters manually on "Global->MIDI->Filters" page. Frankly, i don't know another page on which MIDI IN filters can be set/unset!

Regards

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi looo, and welcome.

I think you glossed over Rob's original reply a little too quickly. As he said, sysex messages are filtered out from MIDI IN by the default Global setup. You just need to find the correct page to uncheck this filter. Sorry, I'm not in front of the Pa800 at the moment, but you'll definitely find a MIDI Filter page there in Global mode.

Good luck!

jg::

Hi, jg!

As i wrote in my original message, i tried differerent MIDI setups, every time removing all MIDI-IN filters manually on "Global->MIDI->Filters" page. Frankly, i don't know another page on which MIDI IN filters can be set/unset!

Regards

Hi Looo,

Have you also tried setting all Midi In track status on your Pa800 to either Global or Control? I believe one or more tracks has to be set in this way to accept SysEx messages. Apart fom this I'm outta suggestions.

[looo]

Hi Looo,

Have you also tried setting all Midi In track status on your Pa800 to either Global or Control? I believe one or more tracks has to be set in this way to accept SysEx messages. Apart fom this I'm outta suggestions.

Hello, Rob, glad to see your message again!

No, i haven't set any MIDI Iin track status to Global or Control and let me explain, why:
Some time ago i learned some interesting things concerning the topic of this thread, namely i got convinced that the Korg PA800 really accepts SYSEX messages sent over USB MIDI port from external sequencers without any Global or Control tracks defined in global->midi page, provided MIDI IN filter on SysEx is not activated, of course.
I managed to operate on Korg "Quarter tone" function by sending SYSEX from Cakewalk and it really works as MIDI implementation chart promises! So the very idea about the correlation between Global/Control tracks' definition and SYSEX reception seems to be incorrect (that's what i presumed from the very beginning).
Another interesting fact i've found out is that Korg reacts on "GM ON", "GS ON" and "XG ON" messages in the way of resetting some tracks' parameters, preserving assigned to the tracks patches however.
Bad news are that EFX parameters remain unerachable to me as SYSEX, manipulating them still seem to be ignored.

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Looo,

Korg have published full SysEx documentation for the Triton, for example see here:

http://www.korg.com/downloads/pc/MIDIimp_Triton.zip

The reason I mention this is because it is a requirement from the MIDI standards body that all manufacturers must publish their SysEx implementation and make it open to other developers. This requirement must apply also to the SysEx implementation on the Pa series keyboards, and I think users have a right to obtain the necessary documentation from Korg. Otherwise Korg cannot say that they are compliant with the MIDI specifications (which requires publication of the SysEx parameters).

Maybe Paolo Tramannoni could you please comment on the availability of Pa series SysEx documentation, and also shed some light on why valid (Korg) SysEx messages are apparently not being processed by the Pa keyboards when received via MIDI IN?

[looo]

Hi Looo,

Korg have published full SysEx documentation for the Triton, for example see here:

http://www.korg.com/downloads/pc/MIDIimp_Triton.zip

The reason I mention this is because it is a requirement from the MIDI standards body that all manufacturers must publish their SysEx implementation and make it open to other developers. This requirement must apply also to the SysEx implementation on the Pa series keyboards, and I think users have a right to obtain the necessary documentation from Korg. Otherwise Korg cannot say that they are compliant with the MIDI specifications (which requires publication of the SysEx parameters).

Maybe Paolo Tramannoni could you please comment on the availability of Pa series SysEx documentation, and also shed some light on why valid (Korg) SysEx messages are apparently not being processed by the Pa keyboards when received via MIDI IN?

Thanks for the link, Rob!
At first glance PA800 System exclusives look differently maybe closer examination reveals any similarities. Following your way i've found another link to the document on Karma MIDI data.
http://www.korg.com/downloads/pc/KarmaV2MIDISpec.exe

[looo]

Hi all,

I've learned interesting info at
http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/news/p ... notes.html
page recently. This page actually is a changelog of Pa800 Operating System and in the OS 1.0.2 bug to the effect that "Quarter Tone SysEx messages were not recognized when received via MIDI" was reportedly fixed!

To sum up, i checked on my Korg PA800, OS 1.51 the real state of affairs with parameters that MIDI implementation chart promises to be controllable via SYSEX over MIDI, below are results:

- Inquiry : works OK
- Master volume : OK
- Quarter tone: OK (since OS 1.0.2 according to Korgpa.com)
- GM mode ON: OK (GS, XG ON do work as well)
- FX settings : Nope, what a nuisance!

Come on, KORG, only one position left to be fixed!