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Track solo/mute - inconsistency between COMBI and SEQ mode

 
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Goldcrest



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Track solo/mute - inconsistency between COMBI and SEQ mode Reply with quote

One problem with using the internal sequencer is that the internal sequencer track solo/mute button only works for the first track for a particular MIDI channel.

For example, if I copy a combi UE000 Velocity Orchestra to the sequencer, using buttons enter+rec/write, the 14 timbres are used to create 14 tracks in the sequencer. 13 tracks are assigned to MIDI channel 1 and the drum track is assigned to MIDI channel 10.

If I then record a song, and play it back, the track mute/solo buttons work as follows (Ignoring the drum track)

In track 1 - if the track is muted - all 13 tracks are muted.

In track 1 - if the track is soloed - all 13 tracks play.

In other tracks - if a track is muted - nothing happens.

In other tracks - if a track is soloed - all sound stops.

In combination mode, mute and solo work as expected - if you press the mute/solo button for a track - that track is muted/soloed.

Hence when developing a combi for a particular song style - I loop a song from an external sequencer to a combination - while experimenting with muting and soloing various tracks(timbres) within the combi - using the M3 editor.

To solo a track in sequencer mode would involve lowering the volume in the 12 other tracks. To unsolo would involve remembering and restoring the original volumes in the 12 tracks.

Another advantage of using a combi is that once I am happy with it, I can copy it to the sequencer. I don't think you can do the reverse - i.e. copy a song to a combi.

I would rather just use the internal sequencer, but as far as I can see, I would need solo/mute in sequencer mode to work as it does in combi mode, and ideally to have an operation that copies the track parameters of a song into the timbres of a combi.

I understand that the track mute/solo operation in the sequencer is based upon MIDI channel - but I cannot really understand why it should not work as the combi mute/solo buttons do. (After all, you can raise and lower the volumes of individual tracks). Also I do not really see any advantages to the way in which solo/mute work in sequencer mode. (Although, admittedly, I am a bit green - please tell me if I am missing a trick).
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ktippets
Junior Member


Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 77
Location: Riverton, Wyoming

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is how I handle muting parts when copying a COMBI over to a SEQ:

I copy the original midi note data (which is usually on track 1 when bringing a COMBI over to a SEQ) onto all the tracks I want to control and assign each one a seperate midi channel.

This doesn't answer your question as to why SEQ mode treats mute this way, but this is the way that I have found to give each track independent control over muting the parts...
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ktippets
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Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 77
Location: Riverton, Wyoming

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've thought about this...it seems that the mute function in SEQ mode only acts to stop midi information from playing on that track. So if that track is only being 'played through' by information from another track (on the same midi channel) than the mute does nothing.
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Goldcrest



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ktippets wrote:
Here is how I handle muting parts when copying a COMBI over to a SEQ:

I copy the original midi note data (which is usually on track 1 when bringing a COMBI over to a SEQ) onto all the tracks I want to control and assign each one a seperate midi channel.


Thanks for this tip - I've tried it and it certainly is a work around to be able to solo/mute all 13 parts using the internal sequencer.

Obviously, this process gets increasingly long winded as more timbres are added, and uses more sequencer memory. For combi UA003 velocity orchestra, the process is as follows:-

1. Copy the combi into the sequencer using key press 'enter+rec/write'
2. Record a track
3. Copy track 1 into tracks 2-13
4. Change the midi channel in tracks 2-13

Once all of the tracks have been assigned to 13 different MIDI channels, playing the keyboard can then only sound one track at a time. To update the song, all tracks would need to be returned to MIDI channel 1 (or whichever channel the controller keyboard is using).

After this experiment, I tried changing the track status in the (external) M3 editor, only to find in sequencer mode - there is no mute/solo functionality - probably because of this ambiguity. (There is 'mute' functionality in the combi mode of the external M3 editor)

ktippets wrote:
As I've thought about this...it seems that the mute function in SEQ mode only acts to stop midi information from playing on that track. So if that track is only being 'played through' by information from another track (on the same midi channel) than the mute does nothing.


I'm sure this is the way it is designed - so that the internal sequencer accurately reflect the MIDI output. For example if there just one part of midi events playing on 14 tracks - then muting that part will mute all 14 tracks.

Normally, it would not make sense to play the same 'part' on 14 different instruments. But with keyboard and velocity zones it does make sense. Combi UA003 allows you to play brass on the left hand - play it a bit harder and you get timpani. On the right hand , if you play it a bit harder, you find that the flute is drowned out by an increasing bright brass sound.

When using the internal sequencer I generally just want to capture the playing of a combi. It is of no significance to me as to which MIDI channel the track goes out to.

With just one track containing the MIDI events, you can edit this one track and hear the result in the 14 instruments. Also, the sounds of instruments can be individually edited. This is all good. The exception to this is the solo/mute status which works on MIDI channel, not track.

What would be neat if there was a toggle that switched the mute/solo functionality between muting/soloing individual tracks(as it works in COMBI mode for timbres) and muting/soloing MIDI channels (as it works now).

It would be interesting to know what proportion of people use the internal sequencer predominately to capture the playing of a combi, against the people who use it as a multi-part recorder.
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ktippets
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Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 77
Location: Riverton, Wyoming

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One additional tool you have in SEQ mode is the ability to use Karma for turning parts off and on. This actually does work independent of midi channel and may accomplish what you are trying to do. (I have used this only when I am not using Karma for anything else - to trigger GE's etc...)

On your M3 check out SEQ p3: track parameters under other. Here you can specify whether a track gets turned off or on using the Karma off/on. Let me know if this works for you. I am always interested in how other people use these functions in the context of specific projects.

Quote:
It would be interesting to know what proportion of people use the internal sequencer predominately to capture the playing of a combi, against the people who use it as a multi-part recorder.


I am interested in this too. I use the M3 sequencer for some of both. But, one thing I do frequently is to arrange songs for various instruments, where the end result is printed sheet music. This is one function (notation editing and printing) that the M3 doesn't do at all. Sad So, I use computer sequencing and editing for this.
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Goldcrest



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ktippets wrote:


On your M3 check out SEQ p3: track parameters under other. Here you can specify whether a track gets turned off or on using the Karma off/on. Let me know if this works for you. I am always interested in how other people use these functions in the context of specific projects.



Thanks again for another useful tip. I did know about the Karma trick for muting timbres in a combi recently posted in this forum, (and also the SYSEX trick for turning off timbres) - but just hadn't thought of doing this to muting/soloeing tracks in the sequencer as it is running.

I've tried this, and Soloing/Muting works fine with the (minor) problem that sustaining notes of a track continue to play when the track is turned off, and do not start sounding again until notes are retriggered.

An interesting side effect to this method is that an entire section can be soloed/muted by toggling the Karma button.

For example, If all brass instrument tracks are flagged to be on when Karma is on, and all other tracks are flagged to be off when Karma is on - the Karma button will toggle between a solo brass section and the rest of the orchestra. In addition to this, X-Y mode can be used to divide the tracks up in an alternative way.

I have found it very interesting using the Karma button track on/off facility in conjunction with X-Y mode to loop a composition hearing how it sounds with various combinations of instruments.

Having said all of this, I would still prefer to solo/mute tracks using the solo/mute buttons!

ktippets wrote:

But, one thing I do frequently is to arrange songs for various instruments, where the end result is printed sheet music. This is one function (notation editing and printing) that the M3 doesn't do at all. Sad So, I use computer sequencing and editing for this.


Do you ever need to divide a single track into multiple parts for the purpose of notation? For example, take a 3 timbre combi :-

Bass :- C1->B3
Piano :- C4->G9 vel = 1-127
Electric Piano :- C4->G9 vel = 90-127

If you copied this across to the sequencer, and recorded something in one pass, the MIDI data would be stored in one track. But if you wanted to separate this out into 3 parts for notation purposes (or say as a basis for editing 3 parts separately), presumably you would need to have a velocity/keyzone splitter within your external sequencer to divide up the 3 parts?

I guess this is another MIDI channel vs track issue. The M3 internally divides the note events using key zones and velocity zones into the 3 tracks - but externally outputs MIDI events to just one channel. Does this behaviour cause you any problems?
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ktippets
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Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 77
Location: Riverton, Wyoming

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Having said all of this, I would still prefer to solo/mute tracks using the solo/mute buttons!


I am finding that the Karma on/off functions and the SysEx capabilities are really amazing and continue to find new creative ways to use them in both live use and for sequencing purposes. I also find that sometimes they are rather a 'workaround' for a track solo/muting function that doesn't exist on this instrument. At least not in the way that we have been discussing here...

Quote:
Do you ever need to divide a single track into multiple parts for the purpose of notation?


When I know I am going to be working specifically on music for notating I usually forgo the M3 sequencer altogether and sequence the parts directly into the computer. (I have the M3M and use a Yamaha S90ES as my main controller.) Typically I do this part by part on seperate tracks and channels. Sometimes I do find that I need to take a single track (usually a full two handed piano part - that is my main instrument) and pull out the melody, the chords and sometimes the bass part. I'm sure I do this the long way, but I typically copy the piano track into three seperate tracks and then delete out the unwanted notes. Then I can use this as a basis for arrangement and editing.
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