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Citizen Klaus
Full Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| alantunucci wrote: | | People with proper training can do fast notes on hammer action keys, see Jordan Rudess, for example. |
JR also makes a decent enough living from his music that he can afford to practice for like 10 hours a day. And he did a conservatory at Juilliard.
That type of training, yielding those sorts of results, is pretty unrealistic for many hobbyists or even, arguably, for professionals who can't sustain a full-time music career. |
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StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 1769
Location: Westfield, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| alantunucci wrote: | | StephenKay wrote: | | If every time you touch your weighted keyboard you're thinking about how much force is necessary to press the keys, vs. the phrase you are playing, that would be a clue that you should have gone with a synth action. |
Or that you need more training, lol.
I think hammer-action keys help the development of your fingers. Personally, synth action keys don't help me at all: I think I screw my fingers if I keep playing with them.
People with proper training can do fast notes on hammer action keys, see Jordan Rudess, for example. |
Well, I was classically trained, I have a Yamaha C7 grand, I've played real piano all my life since the age of 7, and I prefer synth action on my synths. 
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Unicorn
Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Go for weighted keys, especially if you "like" playing keyboard. Buy a small cheap 49 key synth action keyboard to sit beside it and you are done.
The first time I used a weighted keyboard was XV88, fantastic board, after previously using O1/W, Trinity etc and and I was not a classically trained pianost at that time. That helped me build up my finger technique. The inspiration and the control on sound that you will get from playing weighted keyboard is miles apart as compared with that of playing synth action keyboard. Everything sounds SO different becuase of the precise control you get on the sound - be it Strings, Brass whatever. Just my personal opinion..
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2228
Location: B.F.E. Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| StephenKay wrote: | | Well, I was classically trained, I have a Yamaha C7 grand, I've played real piano all my life since the age of 7, and I prefer synth action on my synths. |
Finally! Someone who feels my pain...
I just have this sinking feeling that when the Kronos 88 comes I'm going to be selling it for a loss because I can't deal with the weighted keys...
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Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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master logic
Full Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Unicorn wrote: | | The inspiration and the control on sound that you will get from playing weighted keyboard is miles apart as compared with that of playing synth action keyboard. Everything sounds SO different becuase of the precise control you get on the sound - be it Strings, Brass whatever. Just my personal opinion.. |
My thoughts exactly; to apply that, in my case, to techno music i can only see positives. Why just bash things out when you can have so many subtle nuances that might not be present otherwise. I'll definitely test both versions of Kronos but long term i think it best that i go with the Graded keys. |
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Akos Janca
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1005
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: |
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RH3 or synth action?
Try it and choose the better one for yourself. Advices won't help because it depends on personal things: your training, your music style (which sounds you want to play), and your relation with the instrument (how it responds to your touch).
Neither weighted action nor synth action is good for every situation.
Workstations can imitate the sound of many instruments but unfortunately are equipped with only one keybed. (What about the harpsichord for example? It's not like weighted action but not like synth action either. It's a unique third one.) So, we have to make a compromise: 1. to choose the keybed what we like or would use the most, 2. then to practice and learn how to use it for the other "not-so-suitable" sounds.
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TheLeadingSaw
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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I want a workstation with a keybed similar to a Rhodes one, the feel is great.
You probably will have problem with RH3, especially if you don't have an acoustic piano playing history. Yeah, when you play a piano & string sound you'll have the time of your life, but when it gets to organ and leads you will get frustrated and probably spend most of your time playing other instruments.
What is another reason for Korg to make a semi weighted keybed Kronos! And why I started a 6 page thread about it 
So anyway, if you want a pre-ordered Kronos you should go down to a music store and try out the keybed of a weighted M3/M50 and a synth action M3/M50. |
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EnjoyRC
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 741
Location: John 3:16
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I played a M50/88 last week... RH3 keybed... Wow, I love it!!! What a great feeling keyboard. And I use to think Yamaha was the brand for getting the graded hammer action feel. Good job Korg!!!
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Korg (Kronos 88, MS2000), Access Virus TI, Hammond XK-1, Novation UltraNova, Roland GAIA, Prophet-600
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Akos Janca
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1005
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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TheLeadingSaw
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Akos Janca wrote: | I love the RH3 action (made by Korg) in SV-1, it's great.
However, for "authentic hammer action emulation" I will never forget to check Yamaha. They build real pianos - they know a thing or two about keybeds. |
They build real pianos, but probably can't make a workstation with a keybed similar to an acoustic piano. When I first played the Motif the first thing I noticed was the big difference between it's keybed and my upright Yamaha U2 keybed. |
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EnjoyRC
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 741
Location: John 3:16
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Akos Janca wrote: | | They build real pianos - they know a thing or two about keybeds. |
They build motorcycles... they know a thing or two about building keybeds. 
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Korg (Kronos 88, MS2000), Access Virus TI, Hammond XK-1, Novation UltraNova, Roland GAIA, Prophet-600
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ozy
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Citizen Klaus wrote: | | JR also makes a decent enough living from his music that he can afford to practice for like 10 hours a day. |
I don't like Rudess,
but may I say that it's probably the other way around?
"he makes a decent living because he's been practicing 10 hours a day for some time"?
Does it sound sensible?
It happens to athletes, maybe it happens to musicians as well...
OT closed |
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Akos Janca
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1005
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| TheLeadingSaw wrote: | | Akos Janca wrote: | I love the RH3 action (made by Korg) in SV-1, it's great.
However, for "authentic hammer action emulation" I will never forget to check Yamaha. They build real pianos - they know a thing or two about keybeds. |
They build real pianos, but probably can't make a workstation with a keybed similar to an acoustic piano. When I first played the Motif the first thing I noticed was the big difference between it's keybed and my upright Yamaha U2 keybed. |
I just want to say as a classically trained pianist I've found weighted keybeds of Yamaha digital pianos or synths very comfortable until now.
Unfortunately, I haven't played a Motif yet, I have no experience.   Still I can't believe it's bad.
| EnjoyRC wrote: | | Akos Janca wrote: | | They build real pianos - they know a thing or two about keybeds. |
They build motorcycles... they know a thing or two about building keybeds. |
It's another department! 
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drama1
Senior Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 306
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | StephenKay wrote: | | Well, I was classically trained, I have a Yamaha C7 grand, I've played real piano all my life since the age of 7, and I prefer synth action on my synths. |
Finally! Someone who feels my pain...
I just have this sinking feeling that when the Kronos 88 comes I'm going to be selling it for a loss because I can't deal with the weighted keys...
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Yup, I came this close (-) to ordering an 88, but am glad I didn't. I will certainly check out the Kronos when released, but my M3-73 fully loaded seems for me anyway, the perfect board because of weight, size and sound. I use the Karma for smooth program/combi changes, going to be ordering the K-Sounds Yamaha C7 sample set and B3 Organimation. For me the Radias exp produces more than enough analog sounds. The more I read about the Kronos, I'm not sure I need three different analog exi's, not really crazy about the CX3 so far and because there's no real weight difference between the 73 and 88, it's not going to be easy lugging up and down stairs. Unless there's a HUGE difference on quality of sound, I'll probably stick with the M3 for now. |
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Citizen Klaus
Full Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 149
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ozy wrote: | | Citizen Klaus wrote: | | JR also makes a decent enough living from his music that he can afford to practice for like 10 hours a day. |
I don't like Rudess,
but may I say that it's probably the other way around?
"he makes a decent living because he's been practicing 10 hours a day for some time"?
Does it sound sensible?
It happens to athletes, maybe it happens to musicians as well...
OT closed |
It's probably more of a self-sustaining loop, at this point. He had all of that elite training, and put in all that practice time, to achieve virtuosity, which helped propel his success as a musician. That success, in turn, enabled him to practice more, thus reinforcing his position.
Back on track, I'm not quite sure I buy the arguments about the moral superiority of hammer actions. They're better, as Mr. Kay pointed out, for emulating the feel of one specific category of keyboard instruments, but they in turn demand a different approach to playing technique. If you play an organ engine using a weighted keybed, and you don't want to hurt yourself, you end up playing the organ like a pianist, rather than like an organist.
Back to Rudess, and as much as I love him as a musician, you can hear this whenever he plays a Hammond sound -- his glissandos are much less smooth than those of a proper organist doing palm smears. They sound more like piano glissandos, which makes sense, given that he's playing them on a piano-style keybed. He also tends to incorporate glissandos less often, focusing more on staccato block chords.
Now some of that, to be sure, is down to different approaches to playing. Even on the same type of keybed action, I wouldn't expect Jordan Rudess and, say, Brian Auger to play in an identical manner. At the same time, the fact that there appears to be a correlation between keybed action and differences in the sound of the performance suggests that the action at least contributes to -- even if it doesn't necessarily cause outright -- the sound of the end result.
Last edited by Citizen Klaus on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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