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Calling all real world wind players and WX5 users.

 
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 7:38 pm    Post subject: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 users. Reply with quote

Hello all.
I’m hoping that people like Sioux, Saxmonster, themusicman2001 and others that had or still play real world instruments like flute, brass, and reed could take part in helping out us Yamaha WX5 users in methods of how to play this digital instrument we have.

First of all…. for those who don’t what the WX5 is….


In short it’s a digital wind instrument and here’s a photo of it taken from the Yamaha website. I’m not going to host the image off IA because I’m about to give Yamaha some BIG advertisement for nothing. ;D



To get into detail, it has a simulated mouthpiece like a SAX. The reed has sensors that detect toughing, lip pressure on the reed,  breath, and pretty much everything else that the real instrument can respond to.

It can communicate with other instruments by either a WX cable or a standard Midi cable. The WX cable allows you to connect the WX5 to a Yamaha VL70m for the absolute ultimate wind control possible, where the midi interface allows you to connect the WX5 to anything on this planet with a standard midi interface.

Ok….. now that the introduction of the WX5 is out of the way, lets get down to business.



[hr]
Lets take a look at the first real world instrument “The flute” .
My questions are……

1: How do you hold your stomach when trying to apply a tremolo?. Like… Do you blow from your upper body holding your stomach tight, or to you add the tremolo from your stomach keeping it louse.  Or am I completely wrong on all accounts. If so… how is it done.

2: Toughing notes, do you tip your lip or the inside or your mouth.

3: Is there any tricks you feel should be shared regarding blowing and how hard you blow considering that the WX5 will respond like a real flute.

4: Finally, since I know very little about playing a flute, I’m sure there are things I have not mentioned. Can you give any tips on playing in general ?.

[hr]
Regarding using the WX5 as a SAX.

1: How far so you place the mouth piece into your mouth ?.

2: Baring in mind that the WX5 will act like a real SAX when the Reed mouthpiece is inserted, do you allow air to escape out the side of the mouth piece due to the way the reed is separated away from the main part of the mouth piece.

3: How hard do you hold your lips on the mouthpiece, and when do you tighten up your lips that are pressing against the reed.

4: There are times when I have heard you must treat the reed extremely soft. In what situation would I need to do this.

5: Have you got any advice on playing for us WX5 players that I have not asked about ?.


[hr]

Regarding Brass.

In this area I have been playing real world brass for many years when I was a youth chap.  I was a trained Bass trombone player, but sadly it has been many years since I have played such an instrument.

So can the experts who still play these fabulous instruments please offer advice to us WX5 players anything you may feel is necessary for use to know.

Not just on Trombone playing, but also on trumpet, Cornet or Bass playing.

I’m sorry for the vague questions in this area. I just hope you can share some views.


Big thanks.
Sharp.


PS: …. I would also like to see “””ALL”””” you WX5 players getting involved in this thread. I know we do have a few of your guys here.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

Here's some more great shots of playing...oops, no...painting your windy licorice stick...
http://www.richardandre.net/WXProject/paint/index.htm

Although I just own a measly BC1 Linda Lovelace model, I have always yearned for the WX....and there is a very active group that has cut some sides from various top artistes...but also have a great discussion group over at Yahoo: windcontroller@yahoogroups.com
Case in point:
"And although this may sound strange, you can not negate the sexual
relationship between a musician and their instrument (picture jimi hendrix,
prince, miles davis, etc).  you can see a palpable, tangible erotic
relationship with musicians and their insturments."

Smutty Rohan says:
"But I'm putting a long, hard thing in my mouth!
....Oops! Did I really say that?"
in response:
"Oh Geez!
I just spit out my breakfast drink and some is coming out my nose!"
ROFLHO
I was going to mention wet and tounging but... nahh.... who wants to
hear about a bronx cheer?
On the serious side:

"I have discovered that the flute sound on the vl is waaaaay better than i had originally thought.  i assigned embochure to cc#2 and wow!  the difference was immediate and overwhelming.  www.onyxashanti.com/myinspiration.mp3 this was the first thing i wrote after I created the patch.  It's one of those "hyperreal" things i was talking about; much larger pitchrange, and the overblowing thing is slightly more agressive than a "real" flute.  accentuating certain parts of the patch compensate for things that cant be done (although i dont know what those things would be).  its a really hard patch to control at times, but when th planets allign properly, it is amazing.
   as far as regulating breath noise, you could assign it to cc#80 (the top key ;the toggle control)then have it breathy for intros and (tap) clean for the rest of the piece.  I do that on a few patches for other parameters, and it works really well."
Onyx Ashanti


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saxmonster
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

REAL QUICK BEFORE I GOT TO BED I WILL TRY TO ANSWER, A LOT IS INVOLVED I WILL POST SOME MORE WHEN I GET MORE TIME

Lets take a look at the first real world instrument “The flute” .
My questions are……
 
1: How do you hold your stomach when trying to apply a tremolo?. Like… Do you blow from your upper body holding your stomach tight, or to you add the tremolo from your stomach keeping it louse.  Or am I completely wrong on all accounts. If so… how is it done.

Basically you want to take a deep breath and make sure you belly comes out and not your chest going up.  If you chest goes up after you belly goes out thats ok.  But if only you chest is going up then your belly its wrong, your not breathing right.  its as if you just ran and you are trying to catch your breath, thats not good. And you want to have a constant stream of air comming out with no vibrations.  Your diaphram which sits on the top of you belling ( i believe its been i while since i looked at a diagram) is used to control the air speed.  Basically you want to have the support as if you trying to push something out when you go to do #2 in the potty.  sorry if this is dirty but thats the only feeling that I know everyone has felt.  So depending on how fast the air moves across the lip plate of a flute determines that octave it is playing in.  
 
 
2: Toughing notes, do you tip your lip or the inside or your mouth.

-For tonguing- Your tounge touches the back of the top teeth where they meet the gums.  You keep the air going and just use you tongue like a light switch.  shutting the sound on and off.  When you tounge is against you teeth the air is still pressurized behind the tounge and as soon as you realease your tounge the sound starts instantly.    
   
 
3: Is there any tricks you feel should be shared regarding blowing and how hard you blow considering that the WX5 will respond like a real flute.

not sure how it works don't have one yet.
 
4: Finally, since I know very little about playing a flute, I’m sure there are things I have not mentioned. Can you give any tips on playing in general ?.

Vibrato is either done by your throat or you diaphram.  singers usually use their diaphram if they are trained.  You have to be very relaxed in order for the diaphram to shake naturally, then as you get comfortable with it you can start controlling it.  Start out by doing pulses with your diaphram like huh huh huh.  its almost and if you have something in your throat that you are trying to clear.  

Coughing is a perfect example of you diaphram at work.  

but with vibrato the diaphram is very suttle, not violent like in coughing.

using your throat is the same idea but almost like saying "who" like the owl does but you should feel that pulse in your throat.

I will post more on sax later check these out though
http://www.saxshed.com/.pdfs/garton1.pdf
http://www.saxshed.com/thefluteshed.htm
http://www.saxshed.com/theclarinetshed.htm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

Hi all,

Very cool instrument Sharp!!

Saxmonster is right on point and probably explained flute playing and breathing better than I would have - thanks Sax. Smile

I only have a couple of things to add. First Sharpy, your flute playing on your piece "Always on My Mind" was excellent. It was really beautiful. So if you got the vibrato down you would have it.

There are many many kinds of flutes out there (traditional as in Haynes, pan flutes, etc.)  and many styles of flute playing (traditional, jazz, New Age, Japanese, etc.). I would spend some time listening to some of the better flutists and emulate their tones and vibratos as you practice what Sax has said.

James Galloway is the traditional flutist I would listen to. One thing that might be interesting is a CD I believe he did playing in the Taj Mahal. Cool. Smile Then I would pick some other styles and just listen to them all. You could probably find them online. Mike and some others could probably direct you better on that.

As Sax said, it's all about relaxed control using the diaphram and getting the tonal quality you want.

HTH Smile

Sioux
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Tomcat
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

Well, I quit playing flute back in 1981 (the bottom plate in false teeth won't stay in place so your embochure is constantly changing and tooth glue gets in your saliva and eventually gums up the pads... oh well) so I'll have to try remembering... (you know how bad 68 year old minds are).

Controlling the "sound" of a flute on the WX is going to be something I don't know how you are going to do because the sound depends on where the air stream hits the blow hole wall on the far side. If the air stream is low it will sound fuzzy; if it is centered it will sound clear and bright; if it is high it will sound fluffy; don't know how to get that with a reed. My own personal preference is for the centered, bright sound because that is where the carrrying power of a flute comes from and also how you get length of phrase power from because it is more efficient at producing sound (both Jean-Pierre Rampal and James Galway type tone); however, it is more common for some jazz flute players such as Hubert Laws to use an off centered tone, kind of like a guitarist using a fuzz box. The vibrato is usually done from the diagphram as Saxmonster said. Tongueing has at least 3 variations; 1) behind the teeth with a "tuh" sound using the tip of the tongue, 2) from the middle of the tongue against the roof of the mouth using a "duh" sound which gives a softer articulation than the tip of the tongue, and 3) using a rolling tongue like "r"s in spanish which is called "flutter" tongue. And then, of course, you can at the same time hum into the flute the way Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull used to do. HTH

Tom ;D
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

Flipping heck.
This is all better than I thought.   Surprised Wow  Cool

Thanks a million everyone.
I’ve even printed all this out for safe keeping, and I’m looking forward to trying all I read in this thread.

Thanks.
Sharp.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

COMPENDIUM CD OF WINDCONTROLLER PROS...
There are still some CDs left for those who have not pre-ordered.  You
can order at: www.richardandre.net/windcd
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Tomcat
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

LOL, Sharp, it just occurred to me that I gave up playing the flute 22 years ago; ALMOST as long ago as you are old!!!!!  Cool

Tom ;D
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SLR
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

Hi Sharp.

Nice thread.   ;D

As far as Sax tonguing is concerned, try performing the word 'Tu' when playing.  Start by playing a continuous note and say ' Tu Tu Tu Tu' and so on. Then move  to
saying 'Tu' ONLY on the notes you wish to emphasise.
The more emphasis on a note, the bigger the 'Tu'  Wink

For slurring notes, an interesting technique is the 'wowow' expression. If you time this correct, you can slide from one note to another without noticing a key change. Almost like portamento. The 'wowow' indicates the ammount of pressure to apply to you emboucher. (The way you purse your lips around the mouthpiece)

Do NOT let any air escape from the sides of your mouth.
Direct the airflow through the mouthpeice, and try tensing your stomach muscles and project the air flow through your diaphragm.

This WX thing, can you physically change reeds ??
Do you have reed strengths??

If I play ballad on a Soprano I lean towards a No.1.5 reed, but up tempo on an Alto or Tenor I move towards a No.3

The lower the number, the softer the reed, therefore the quieter you can play with the least ammount of puff and pressure. Having said that, the more experience, the less reed strength becomes important.

You also have to take into consideration the lay and opening of the mouthpiece. Is this also a factor on the WX's ??
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SLR
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

Oops, I forgot.   Tremelo:

Also added by the 'wowow' technique.
Just really quick multiple 'wowows'  ;D
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themusicman2001
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

Hi Sharp - great thread this one, I'm enjoying following it...

Here's my £0.02 worth of thoughts... (apologies if you already know this being an accomplished BTrom player)

With regard to brass 'sound production' as compared to flute or reed... with the flute it's the effect of the air travelling across the top of the flute that produces the sound, with reed instruments it's the actual reed that vibrates but with brass instruments, it's the players lips that actually vibrate inside the mouthpiece that produces the sound.  The bigger the mouthpiece/instrument means that more of the players 'lip' is inside the mouthpiece and hence the vibration inside the mouthpiece is slower and hence the sound produced is (generally) lower in pitch.  The area of the lip/mouth used to produce the sound is as you know, called the embouchure.

Now, here's the bit I'm not sure how you would set your WX5 to deal with.  Though I am not a flute player, I imagine that only very little pressure is applied from under the lower lip which holds the flute in position leaving the sound to be controlled by parameters such as volume of air flow and speed of air flow across the flute etc.  With reed there is pressure exerted by the bottom lip which if excessive would simply halt the sound - so control of sound is achieved by controlling that pressure exerted and passing more or less air though the instrument.  With brass, it's the top and bottom lips that vibrate producing the sound.  Pressure of the lips on the mouthpiece needs control (a) stop prevent air leakage from around the sides of the mouthpiece and (b) as in the case of the reed to control the quality of the sound produced.  Tone quality is controlled in the main by ones embouchure i.e. the shape and control of the muscles in the lip that produce the sound - also, the size of the hole the air passes through has a massive impact on the 'roundness' and 'richness' of the sound - which in turn means even finer control of the lip muscles is required because as the 'hole' gets slightly larger, then less of the lip is within the mouthpiece and so fewer muscles vibrate to produce the sound... phewww... I haven't read through this just yet, I hope this still sounds OK.. Razz

Also, what of the analogy that all brass players experience... their lips 'going' ?  Can I explain what this is for those here who are not brass. "My lip has gone" is a very common expression amongst brass players.  It is when the muscles of the embouchure that vibrate inside the mouthpiece are so tired and can no longer be controlled or tightened and hence no sound can be produced.  The closest analogy I can think of is... try holding a brick in your hand at arms length outwards from your body.  Eventually your arm will tire and even with all your strength, your arm will slowly drop down to your side - no matter how much you try!  After say a few mins respite, you can achieve this again, but you will not be able to hold your arm out for as long as you did 1st time and once again your arm will slowly drop to your side.  Again, after a few moments you can hold your arm out once again, but within an even shorter time your arm will be right back by your side.  It's the same for the brass players lips!  Stamina is achieved by specific practice exercises and perseverance.  How Sharp, could the WX5 measure the slow loss of strength a players lip as he/she progresses through a performance?  In a lot of cases (especially amateur brass players such as myself where we don't HAVE to ensure stamina is maintained - it's just a hobby ;D) this effects the quality of the sound produced.

I hope this little essay helps in some small way ;D though something tells me you're aware of all this anyhows.... ;D

Let me know if you or anyone else here wants more and I'll gladly oblige.

John
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Calling all real world wind players and WX5 us Reply with quote

Wow…kicking thread. !!!
Great information. Thanks a million to all. !!!

This is one is defiantly going into the Classic Threads sectioin.  Cool

Sharp.

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