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synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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 Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: An apology, and a disclosure |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | synthguy wrote: | | However, I'm always open to new goodies, since these softie engineers are sweating to get noticed in a sea of samey software. What do you like? |
Here are some personal favorites of mine (in no particular order):
(list) |
I kinda... turned my nose up at all those. Well, except Minimonsta, TimeWARP 2600 and Omnisphere as I said before, as well as the OB-X emulator (who's name escapes me at the mo). What I really want is Kronos, and those nine engines are going to occupy me for the foreseeable future... when I can afford one.  But when the time comes to go shopping for that music PC and DAW, I'm going to keep my options open. I have to say though that Bob Moog himself endorsed the Arturia Moog Modular V, and I can't imagine a synthesizer I want more than a modular. Or that Dr Bob went deaf when he was helping tune the Arturia engine. On those other guys, we'll see down the road.
| RonF wrote: | | Just to clarify my point from earlier....I think the KRONOS is the "freshest" take on existing sonic technology to date. Its fantastic! But, sonically, it's not "new". Far from it. |
I was thinking of this yesterday on the way to work, that really you're right, that Kronos is just the best repackaging of existing synth technology there is. Like a Lionstracs but in some ways much better. I'll get more into the specifics and what-elses below.
| Quote: | It makes you think.....what could the replacement to the KRONOS, a few years from now, have that would be compelling to purchase yet another workstation keyboard beyond KRONOS? See...I "doubt" it will be a new synthesis technology. Rather I think it will be updated "spec tech", and the addition of even MORE "old" technologies than we now have in KRONOS.....such as a M1 or Trinity, etc.
What about Roland and Yamaha? How much you wanna bet they turn to their synth museums too. Isn't that what they have already done in the past 10 years? Both the Fantom and Motif series, as excellent as they may be, have focused on existing (albeit a limited selection of compared to KRONOS with its 9 engines) sonic technology (mostly VA and sample playback in those two examples). How do they forge upwards from there? Sans some shockingly new synthesis development (lord, I hope it happens, but I am dubious)......they look *backwards* and repackage it in a fresh and exciting new way.....JUST like KRONOS. |
On the son of Kronos, I sincerely doubt that there will be an M1 or Trinity emulator in it. For one thing, it wouldn't sound the same. It wouldn't have the yucky, lame filters or outputs of the M1, and the filters of the Trinity in essence are already in the OASYS and Kronos. The waveforms are for the most part, along with waves from the DW-8000 and DSS-1 sampler. So in Kronos, you already have a legacy instrument, especially with the MS-20 and Polysix emulations. However, you didn't mention the Z1, which is a distinct possibility. Hey, it might even have the option of aliasing oscillators and limited bit depth.
Roland has already opened fire with the Jupiter-80. I know that most people were looking forward to a Jupiter-8 clone, but I fully expect that many musicians would complain that it wouldn't sound the same and dump on it. I think Roland is going in... well, if not the right direction, a right direction. What are people complaining about on the Kronos - I mean besides the data wheel which everyone seems to love to hate these days? They want articulations and physical modeling. Well, the Jup-80 provides this, and surprisingly well I'd say. This bodes well for a new Fantom workstation line, which to get out from under the stigma of the Fantom G and emphasize a new direction, may have a new name. Since many keyboard makers like to broaden their lines to keep buyers of all spending levels happy, there will likely be new pianos, new Junos and a new V Synth to go along with the new superstation and Jup-80. I think rather than going all-in-wonder like KORG is with Kronos, the new Fantom replacement will have limited VA capability, leaving that for the new V Synth, but I could be wrong.
What they have as far as legacy is pretty rich, but I suspect are limited to four or five major landmark instruments.
- Jupiter-4
- Jupiter-8
- D-50/550
- JD-800/990
- System 100 and 700 modulars
If they could produce a V Synth with these emulators in them, I'd buy one the instant I had the cash. Especially if it included a polypressure keyboard. Hint hint, Roland. 
As for Yamaha, while they have a fairly rich line of keyboard instruments per se, people only remember a handful of them:
- CS synth line, in particular the CS-80
- FM synths, in particular the DX7 and SY77/99
- AN1x
And of course the EX5, which like the Kronos had a number of synth engines under the hood, though only the AN1-like analog model and VL-50-ish physical model stood out as really unique. Many of us expected a rebirth of the EX instead of the Motif XF, which only gigging musicians seem very excited over. However, it does offer some of the Tyros articulation algorithms. If Yamaha did indeed produce an EX-50 in a year or two with samples manipulated with excellent articulation, especially if it included a CS-80 emulator, programmable physical modeling and FM, as well as a dreaded polypressure keyboard and a nice big ribbon controller, once again I'd buy one the instant I had the coin. Hint hint, Yamaha.
In fact, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for Yamaha to produce a CS-80 VA synth, incorporating a CS emulator as well as the AN1, phys model and FM engines. Once again, drool, would buy. 
As for new synthesis technology, we're just about tapped out on that. Some people mention "granular," but that's not synthesis, that's just garbling up audio snippets. As I posted over on... and uhm, pardon my Deutch, Gearslutz, the only discreet synthesis types we've come up with are:
- Subtractive: filtering basic harmonics from OSC waveforms
- FM and Additive: generating or adding harmonics to fundamental tones
- Waveshaping: using linear and non-linear functions to alter the structure of a source wave
- Resynthesis: adjusting harmonics from existing sonic material, either single cycle waves or samples
- Physical modeling: creating virtual objects with various sound generating methods
And outside of those basic five, I don't see anything forthcoming from anyone.
A number of people say they want additive synths to make a comeback. Well, you can do that stuff with a DX7, SY77, FM8... several synths in fact. The king of romplers able to do this is the Kurzweil PC3. If you don't mind being stuck with only playing four note chords, you can have 64 harmonics using a sinewave block and sine sample, with each one controlled by its own multistage envelope, FUNs and LFOs. You can use other waveforms than sinewaves. Drop to eight note chords, and you still have 32 harmonics, 16 note chords, 16 harmonics and so on. Is anyone doing this? Not that I know of.
Physical modeling, we have around after a fashion with a handful of synths, but for resynthesis, you only have the Fairlight and Synclavier in hardware, a few obscure mainframe computers in music labs, or very few softsynths such as Alchemy in software, and the softies are reported to be rather weak. It doesn't help that resynthesis, as well as additive, is even harder to deal with than FM, which is itself a bit headache inducing.
Yamaha is rich enough to pursue musically useful physical modeling, resynthesis and additive, and KORG, Nord and Roland could be, among others. But frankly, I'm expecting movement on these to be rather slow, especially resynthesis.
Do I expect exciting days ahead as far as new instruments? Sure! Kronos is landing like an alien invasion, everyone is taking notice, especially the other keyboard makers. For those expecting BRAND NEW synthesis methods and technology, you guys will likely be disappointed. But for the rest of us, we happy! 
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Last edited by synthguy on Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CfNorENa
Senior Member
Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 437
Location: SF Bay Area
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: An apology, and a disclosure |
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| synthguy wrote: | What they have as far as legacy is pretty rich, but I suspect are limited to four or five major landmark instruments.
- Jupiter-4
- Jupiter-8
- D-50/550
- JD-800/990
- System 100 and 700 modulars
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I think this is rather understated. "Pretty rich" legacy? I'm no Roland fanboy, but I'd say they have by far the richest electronic music legacy of any company (yes, that includes Moog).
As for the "landmarks," if we're talking about instruments of the stature of the MS-20 and Polysix, then you're going to have a much bigger list than that. At a bare minimum, SH-5, System 100m, SH-101, Juno 60, Jupiter 6 (or MKS-80), and TB-303. Add drum machines, and the list gets bigger still.
Not that digital emulations of vintage analogs are ever very satisfying in any case...
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Korg gear: Kronos 73.
Other gear: Oberheim SEM | SCI Prophet 5 | Roland MKS-70 | Waldorf Microwave XTk |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: An apology, and a disclosure |
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| synthguy wrote: | | as well as the OB-X emulator (who's name escapes me at the mo) |
Oh yes! Forgot to list that one! sonicprojects OP-X PRO II is an amazing sounding plug!  |
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EXer
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: An apology, and a disclosure |
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| synthguy wrote: | As for Yamaha [...] of course the EX5, which like the Kronos had a number of synth engines under the hood [...] Many of us expected a rebirth of the EX instead of the Motif XF
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synthguy, I'll have to call you 'brother'
| synthguy wrote: | | As for new synthesis technology, we're just about tapped out on that. Some people mention "granular," but that's not synthesis, that's just garbling up audio snippets. |
I don't agree, but I don't want to open a debate on that subject now.
Anyway, granular synthesis can produce very interesting results, not only by time-stretching or pitch-shifting samples, but also in a more creative way. The V-Synth uses granular synthesis, although it is referred to as 'Variphrase': a sample has to be 'encoded' in the V-Synth before it can be used, and the encoding type has to be chosen according to the characteristics of the sample ('lite', 'solo', 'backing' (i.e. drumtracks), 'ensemble'); that is clear evidence that the V-Synth builds a grain table from the sample.... |
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synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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You're right, CfN, that Roland actually does have the richest synthesizer legacy of any keyboard manufacturer. However, I have to wonder how many folk know half of the synths you listed. I do, but then I am a Roland fanboy. I was watching all those synths being developed.
I was even hesitant to list the modulars, but I figured that being in a music forum, someone would remember them. Many here are going to recall the Juno 6, and if not, hopefully the Juno-106 or a-Juno. But if they do, how many even remember that there were two a-Junos, as well as an MKS module?
Over at Gearslutz - man, that name... the buzz about the SH-7 is just about non-existent. Jupiter-8 is the gas giant that overshadows all. Because of techno, TB-303 is mentioned some, but even that usually produces a tepid, short lived discussion. Even fairly interesting synths like the JD-990 and XV-5080 which have their own threads slide off the front page to disappear for several days, until someone bumps them to make a comment or question. I could modify my list to say
- Jupiter-4/SH-5/SH-7/SH-101/System-100m/TB-303 (and other legacy synths)
which I'm sure would make both the vintage analog and techno crowds fairly happy. Some of them anyhow.
But as for this:
| Quote: | | Not that digital emulations of vintage analogs are ever very satisfying in any case... |
I know that this is batted around pretty violently sometimes over at GS and other music forums, but the jury is hung over this. And I'll have to say that with the explosion of soft synths all over the planet, I think there's a lot more going on than a cheap buy and DAW in-the-box convenience.
I'm a huge hardware analog fan. I dearly love real analogs, find them to be sweeter music instruments with a more organic sound. But even a die hard like me will admit that given the choice of a Virus, Radias, JP-8000, Arturia softie, VAZ, Xiil, whatever or nothing but my M3, I'll grab onto any one of them fiercely, and coax some very nice sounds from them which I will find extremely satisfying. Sure, between those and an Andromeda, Synthex or Memorymoog, those are lesser beings, but even then, a Virus or Radias has its own sound, and I can do things with them that I can't with a Synthex or Andy.
Sound is my playtoy, and all these tools give me options I crave. And this is what the discussion is all about. Analog purists have a point, sort of, but there are limitations to going analog only, unless you happen to own a massive modular synth. But one thing I won't go along with is that soft emulations or VAs just aren't very satisfying. I do own some analog gear, but I'm never giving up my VAs - romplers either - any more than I'm giving up them.
And woah, replies already. I guess class is in session! I guess I'll wedgie in a reply.
| EXer wrote: | | synthguy, I'll have to call you 'brother' |
Hey, there is some French blood in my veins.
| Quote: | | I don't agree (about granular synthesis), but I don't want to open a debate on that subject now. |
Yeah, I don't really want to be dogmatic on this point either, and what the V Synth does is very clever. I doubt I'll ever do more than one or two things with the technique, but others do, so rock on.
As for the more traditional vintage emulations, I'm most curious about what Yamaha and Kurzweil are going to do, because Roland has already dropped one instrument already. Yamaha's EX synths were so groundbreaking that if they don't do something similar or bigger, I have a feeling that Yamaha will become the new Roland. And I think they're smart enough having seen the OASYS and suspecting the Kronos to let things lie much longer. And Kurzweil is definitely doing something that's exciting those who are lucky to take a peek into their R&D labs. And Roland has to have more goodies in the wings too.
2012 may end up being a very exciting year for us musicians.
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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My favorite Rolands were the SH-7 (which I guess made up for the fact that I never had gotten that SH-3A I wanted), MKS-70, and MKS-20. I never did get the D-550 I was thinking about for a while. And if Yamaha wants to go into the archives, a CS-80 emulation in a board with polyphonic aftertouch would be very cool.
But even Korg has a lot more legacy they could exploit. Mini-Korg and Maxi-Korg, for example. (And a Maxi-Korg is not exactly a pair of Mini-Korgs in a box... the filters are different, at least.) The PS3100/PS3300 (though maybe the polyphonic MS-10 implementation addresses that pretty well?). The DSS-1 had a great sound and could really benefit from an implementation where you would not having to wait over a minute to load new sounds from a floppy (not to mention how big and heavy the thing was). Though the DSS interface was so convoluted, maybe that's not such a good idea after all... but even just a set of loadable "DSS samples" with their original programming would be nice, even if they didn't implement all the editing and such.
edit: plus the DSS1 had the cool waveform drawing thing, something like that could be nice.... |
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