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SGX-1 and EP-1 release velocity & release noise levels

 
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JPROBERTLA
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Joined: 04 Jul 2011
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Location: New Orleans

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:03 pm    Post subject: SGX-1 and EP-1 release velocity & release noise levels Reply with quote

Last week I submitted a post inquiring about velocity release MIDI information transmitting to and from the Kronos. This is important to some, because the release noise levels in the SGX-1 and EP-1 programs are affected by this parameter. I said I would post what I found out, so here it is; and from a most reliable source: The Kronos keyboards transmit velocity release MIDI information. The Kronos does not recieve velocity release MIDI information. When another keyboard is used to play SGX-1 and EP-1 programs, this parameter if fixed at MIDI value 64. Korg anticipating that other keyboards would be used to control the Kronos, compensated by programing this parameter in these PCGs to sound "good" at that value. You can also edit this parameter in any program if you want to increase of decrease the release noise level. Does anyone think this will be a problem?
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franzlp
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to Korg, is there any programmatic reason to fix this value? This would seem a very desirable exploit since you can certainly conceive having external controllers use the Kronos and adjust this value dynamically by a real time performance value.
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JPROBERTLA
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the Kronos doesn't recieve MIDI release velocity information, they fixed the value so that the release noise would sound when controlled by another keyboard. I am not sure if there are any keyboard controllers that transmit MIDI release veocity information - does anyone know of one?
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Kronos2-88, Behringer XR18, Turbosound IP2000 (x2), dbx DriveRack 260, KRK Rokit 8s, Mackie CFX16, Mackie SRM450(x2), Mackie SRS1500 (x2), BBE processors (x4), Roland VSR 880 (x2), Alto TS210, Alto TX10 (x3) and SoundForge
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ldascanio
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JPROBERTLA wrote:
Since the Kronos doesn't recieve MIDI release velocity information, they fixed the value so that the release noise would sound when controlled by another keyboard. I am not sure if there are any keyboard controllers that transmit MIDI release veocity information - does anyone know of one?


In fact you are not limited to other keyboard transmiting release velocity info.
If I understood correctly, in the MIDI implementation chart of the KRONOS it clearly specify that release velocity is only transmitted between 1-64 values (instead of 1-128 common MIDI range) and more important.... the KORNOS sequencer does not save release velocity data, so when you try to reproduce with the sequencer a live performance with SGX-1 and EP-1 engines the noises associated to release velocity won't be reproduced in the same way.
According to the MIDI implementation (parameter guide at the end), the sequencer will transmit always a value=64 for this parameter. I think this is the main reason why the programs based on these engines should sound good and balanced when release velocity is 64 even if KRONOS is your only keyboard.

Rgds.
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that sounds badly hacked in.
But then they went to all the trouble to work around it to get it to work well. Why not just receive it and store it in the sequencer properly in the first place?


My Novation ReMote37 SL transmits release velocity. As does the rest of the range I expect (I always wanted the 61).

Unfortunately release-velocity is one of those obvious things that is so easy to implement and has been in the MIDI standard for years but no-one bothers with it. It can make for some quite expressive sounds. For example I make pads in Reaktor where the Attack is controlled by the On Velocity and the Release is controlled by the Off Velocity. Quite cool.

Sorry but it just seems so Rolling Eyes
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ldascanio
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Joined: 29 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X-Trade wrote:
Now that sounds badly hacked in.
But then they went to all the trouble to work around it to get it to work well. Why not just receive it and store it in the sequencer properly in the first place?

Sorry but it just seems so Rolling Eyes


I agree that it would be really nice to have release velocity fully implemented in Kronos (including sequencer and all other engines, availability as AMS, etc) but even if not, it's an addition not present in previous KORG workstations (OASYS included) that have some utility in specific situations as live performance of piano sounds, so I'm still happy to have it implemented. I think it's an advance even if not implemented in the best imaginable way.

Rgds.
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OASYS 88 #000312
KRONOS 61 #003946
KORG Z1, ROLAND PK-5
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D


Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: SGX-1 and EP-1 release velocity & release noise leve Reply with quote

JPROBERTLA wrote:
Last week I submitted a post inquiring about velocity release MIDI information transmitting to and from the Kronos. This is important to some, because the release noise levels in the SGX-1 and EP-1 programs are affected by this parameter. I said I would post what I found out, so here it is; and from a most reliable source: The Kronos keyboards transmit velocity release MIDI information. The Kronos does not recieve velocity release MIDI information. When another keyboard is used to play SGX-1 and EP-1 programs, this parameter if fixed at MIDI value 64. Korg anticipating that other keyboards would be used to control the Kronos, compensated by programing this parameter in these PCGs to sound "good" at that value. You can also edit this parameter in any program if you want to increase of decrease the release noise level. Does anyone think this will be a problem?


I think this was a misunderstanding. The KRONOS both receives and transmits release velocity. This is shown in the MIDI Implementation Chart in the Operation Guide.

However, most other keyboards don't support release velocity. These keyboards will send every note-off with a fixed release velocity of 64. So, we made sure that the sounds would still sound good with release velocity fixed at 64.

- Dan
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Dan Phillips
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For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ldascanio wrote:

If I understood correctly, in the MIDI implementation chart of the KRONOS it clearly specify that release velocity is only transmitted between 1-64 values (instead of 1-128 common MIDI range)


Yup. We looked into this quite a bit before deciding on the implementation. We decided that restricting the range to 1-64 (for reception in particular) was necessary for compatibility with the vast majority of keyboards which do not support release velocity. Otherwise, they'd all sound as if you were releasing the key pretty slowly.
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Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com
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ldascanio
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Joined: 29 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
ldascanio wrote:

If I understood correctly, in the MIDI implementation chart of the KRONOS it clearly specify that release velocity is only transmitted between 1-64 values (instead of 1-128 common MIDI range)


Yup. We looked into this quite a bit before deciding on the implementation. We decided that restricting the range to 1-64 (for reception in particular) was necessary for compatibility with the vast majority of keyboards which do not support release velocity. Otherwise, they'd all sound as if you were releasing the key pretty slowly.


Thanks Dan!

Crystal clear as usual Smile

Rgds.
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OASYS 88 #000312
KRONOS 61 #003946
KORG Z1, ROLAND PK-5
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