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shap Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011 Posts: 194 Location: US northwest
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:06 am Post subject: |
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McHale wrote: | It's in the Global settings and I think it's in the drop down. |
The one I found there is brightness, not contrast. Am I looking in the wrong place? _________________ Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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StephenKay KARMA Developer Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002 Posts: 2979 Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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shap Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011 Posts: 194 Location: US northwest
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
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panrixx wrote: | shap wrote: | For reference, I'm 5'11", so I don't think I'm at either extreme for expected height of the user. |
So, at 6' 3" will the situation become better or worse for me? |
Slightly. Being a bit taller, your angle of view will be slightly less than mine. Unfortunately, the difference will be pretty small - and of course, it depends how much of your height is in your torso vs. your legs. _________________ Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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shap Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011 Posts: 194 Location: US northwest
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:09 am Post subject: |
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nowtime wrote: | I NEVER change pages on these controllers, all controls are dedicated. |
Yes. I should have said this explicitly. If a control has a dedicated function, then a pot can be a perfectly fine choice.
nowtime wrote: | I sure do love this keyboard though.... |
Me too. _________________ Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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panrixx Senior Member
Joined: 13 May 2011 Posts: 448 Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall, UK
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:14 am Post subject: |
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shap wrote: | panrixx wrote: | shap wrote: | For reference, I'm 5'11", so I don't think I'm at either extreme for expected height of the user. |
So, at 6' 3" will the situation become better or worse for me? |
Slightly. |
Is that slightly better or slightly worse? I assume slightly better. _________________ Rhodes 73 Mk1; Kronos 88; Synthex; Electribe EMX-1; Motif XS Rack; Yamaha DX7IIFD; Yamaha MM8; Roland Alpha Juno-2; Roland JV-2080; Tascam FW-1884. |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:19 am Post subject: |
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shap wrote: | danatkorg wrote: | I have the KRONOS on the second tier of my stand, so in a seated position the angle is perhaps 75 degrees. |
Is your upper tier perchance angled down a bit? In my case the KRONOS is on a single-tier stand at standard piano height. The LCD brightness is at 63 (which seems to be max). My viewing angle when normally seated is almost exactly 45 degrees (I can get a precise measurement if that is helpful).
At 45 degrees, the display is noticeably dimmer. When I look from above, I can mostly read everything. When I look from my seated position, the reduction in brightness is enough to eliminate my ability to raise the display.
All: the problem here isn't the fixed display position; it's the particular angle. It's a tough one to fix within the form factor constraints.
I'd have to go back and look at the tear-down photos to be sure, but I suspect that the MOTIF's "sunken bezel" trick won't work. The MOTIF XF display is mounted significantly further away from the keybed. My guess would be that the internal clearance just isn't there on the KRONOS to play that trick. Given this constraint, the only way I can see to angle the display more favorably for a seated performer requires (a) a hinge, like on the OASYS, or (b) a taller enclosure so as to make the upper edge of the display be higher, or (c) some form of "bump out" on the enclosure, similar to what was done on the Fantom enclosures. Options (b,c) give you a net increase in enclosure height, which makes transporting the unit harder. The current height is favorable to cars whose rear seats can be lowered.
The catch, of course, is that the angle of the display would then (of necessity) be less favorable for standing players. It's not clear to me whether a good balance for both is possible.
Maybe I should just raise my seat a bit and grow longer arms. |
There is quite a variety of conditions challenging optimal LCD viewing on multiple boards, such as studio use, outdoor use, indoor gig use, lighting, etc, etc.
I have owned multiple keyboards and solved LCD viewing angles with
keyboard stands.
Specifically, I owned a Triton 61, Extreme 76, M3M, Motif XS7, Rd700GX.
I had a K & M Spider Pro that had angled support arms. I used the Pro
to solve LCD viewing for the XS and Extreme. My RD was placed on a sturdy quik-lok WS 550. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Last edited by GregC on Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shap Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011 Posts: 194 Location: US northwest
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:22 am Post subject: |
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So earlier I promised more about the knobs. My team is actually having a bit of a debate about this. One of us has some experience with the human factors end of glass cockpit design in airplanes, and is quite adamant about the need for tactile feedback in certain situations. There were some dicey moments involving thrust controls before this lesson got internalized in the aeronautics world. I tend to agree, but I note that those controls never have multiple purposes (that is: no "page switching").
My claim, basically, is that the hard stop at the end of the traverse of the pot, in and of itself, isn't providing value. An infinite rotary with a ring of position feedback lights would do the job, and could correctly support page switching.
When you are not in live performance you can either look at the position lights, or the graphic on the display, or listen to the result in your ear. None of these are assisted by the hard stop at the end of traverse. Conversely, when you are performing live, the last thing you want to do is reach out and twist a knob to the stops (at either end), because that's a pretty noticeable and drastic change in your sound. You're either going to look at the knob or you're going to feel for the right value with your ears.
If for some reason you actually do want to run the knob to the stops, a rotary can do that - it just lacks the physical stop.
Anybody feel strongly that they don't like rotary knobs with a ring of lights? If so, can you say what problem they are failing at for you?
Addendum: the issue for me isn't just that the knobs are multiplexed. It's also a problem for me that they go out of sync if I switch from one voice selection to another. _________________ Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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RonF Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002 Posts: 1179 Location: San Diego, CA USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:24 am Post subject: |
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McHale wrote: | shap wrote: | danatkorg wrote: | There is only a Brightness control... Sorry for the inconvenience. |
Dan: Is there some other way to adjust LCD contrast? |
It's in the Global settings and I think it's in the drop down. |
Not contrast.....just brightness. _________________ http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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RonF Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002 Posts: 1179 Location: San Diego, CA USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: |
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shap wrote: |
Since we're saying exactly the same thing, I respectfully disagree that you disagree. |
I disagree that you can disagree that I disagree when we clearly disagree!
No....not really....I got you brother... _________________ http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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shap Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011 Posts: 194 Location: US northwest
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:38 am Post subject: |
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RonF wrote: | I disagree that you can disagree that I disagree when we clearly disagree! |
Now that we agree on. _________________ Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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Back to top |
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RonF Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002 Posts: 1179 Location: San Diego, CA USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:41 am Post subject: |
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shap wrote: |
Anybody feel strongly that they don't like rotary knobs with a ring of lights? If so, can you say what problem they are failing at for you?
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I would again point you to the Prophet 08 history with a similar issue of rotary's vs pots's. It illustrates at least one example where Pots were deemed preferable in a "synthesis" context. While not the end-all be-all on the topic....its a relevant example for sure. As it turns out, the "Pot Edition" of the P08 out sold the "Rotary Edition" to the point where it is no longer offered that way, and comes standard with Pots. There are certain things to consider however....in that SOME of the knobs on the P08 remain Rotary's, even in the "Pot Edition", because it the optimal functionality to be that way. Other knobs, however, such as the Filter Cutoff knob and Resonance, were clearly deemed by the masses to be preferable as Pots. So all in all...there are pro's and con's depending on the specific application. I would point out that on the Kronos, many of the functions of the knobs would be, IMHO, better suited for Pots, as they are. Being that the Kronos, unlike the P08, has only a handful of knobs (unlike the P08's vast number of dedicated-per-function knobs), it may have been a design choice to yield to the lowest common denominator. In other words, since the knobs do act as "synth parameter controllers", among their other switchable functions, they are best used (from one point of view) as Pots with a fixed range of travel.
Its also how Rotary's are implemented in software that makes a big difference in their success. The problem with the P08, again as an example, is that the resolution of the parameter was not aligned with the physical control of the Rotary knob, causing you to have to turn the Rotary an excessive distance to travel through the parameter range. Not a good thing when you are sweeping a filter cutoff, etc. Also the Pots, having a more analog resolution, as I understand, derived a smoother result (giving consideration that the P08 is a true analog, and not a digital synth, albeit DCO's and digital firmware to control it). So I am just brushing the surface on those considerations....but alas there are considerations on both sides of this fence. _________________ http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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madbeatzyo111 Guest
Joined: 13 Jun 2011 Posts: 379
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:43 am Post subject: Re: First Impressions: Minor (and fixable) KRONOS faults |
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shap wrote: | The LCD display needs to be re-angled. It works fine standing up, but the angle is unacceptable when seated. Note that this is independent of the font size issue.
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Contrast/brightness adjustment is not going to help increase the viewing angle much. Fixing it a different angle would require a redesign of the front panel and would still not be ideal for all situations. Bottom line, I don't think we can get around the fact that there needs to be a hinged display. The XF can get away without one since it doesn't use a touchscreen so being able to see it clearly is not as big a deal (with enough practice, you don't need the screen much at all). |
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shap Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011 Posts: 194 Location: US northwest
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Ron: how many of the pots on the P08 did not have dedicated functions? Also, did the Prophet have a notion of stored settings, where loading a previously saved configuration could cause a pot's position to go out of sync with its value?
Point taken on the software issue. As with all things in physical UI design, selecting the right part and using it in the right way matters. Of course, the same sort of issue can arise by selecting the wrong pot for the job, too. _________________ Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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RonF Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002 Posts: 1179 Location: San Diego, CA USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:07 am Post subject: |
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shap wrote: | Ron: how many of the pots on the P08 did not have dedicated functions? Also, did the Prophet have a notion of stored settings, where loading a previously saved configuration could cause a pot's position to go out of sync with its value?
Point taken on the software issue. As with all things in physical UI design, selecting the right part and using it in the right way matters. Of course, the same sort of issue can arise by selecting the wrong pot for the job, too. |
Its been while since I had my P08 (sold it a while back), but there were several Rotary's that had multiple functions, and thus remained as Rotary's after the P08's "redesign", for all the reasons you are illustrating where a Rotary is preferable. And sure....changing a "patch" would cause certain settings to "jump" to its saved setting. The Pots, therefore, had a selection for catch or jump, which as I remember was a global setting, rather than a per-parameter setting. So again...pros and cons.
But it truly was an issue when trying to edit a patch, and sweep a filter parameter, and you had to turn the knob to strange angles, or even more than a 360 degree travel range, just to sweep the parameter range. Again, some of this was the software implementation....but one would think that if it was a simple of "adjusting" the programming to reduce the controller range to sweep the parameter range....that they would have done THAT over introducing a "Pot edition". So...I am not purporting to be 100% versed on all of the P08 issues, I just have an awareness of the topic, but its does raise some strong considerations where Pots may be considered preferable.
As you say.....poor software design can hinder any hardware component....so with that in mind....its perhaps not a "Rotary vs Pot" debate, so much as a "Good implementation vs a Bad implementation" debate. For me....I am satisfied with the Kronos control surface as it is (its certainly better than the M3, IMO), and am quite used to the Korg way of doing things in this department. So its thoughtless and seamless to my work-flow. But, like many things, a great implementation of some OTHER design (such a Rotary's) would be welcome by all....I am sure. _________________ http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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RonF Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002 Posts: 1179 Location: San Diego, CA USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:11 am Post subject: Re: First Impressions: Minor (and fixable) KRONOS faults |
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madbeatzyo111 wrote: |
Contrast/brightness adjustment is not going to help increase the viewing angle much. Fixing it a different angle would require a redesign of the front panel and would still not be ideal for all situations. Bottom line, I don't think we can get around the fact that there needs to be a hinged display. The XF can get away without one since it doesn't use a touchscreen so being able to see it clearly is not as big a deal (with enough practice, you don't need the screen much at all). |
If you have an M3, then you know this is not true. The Contrast adjustment makes a HUGE difference in the brightness and visibility at an angle. With out it, forget about it! _________________ http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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