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Korg Kronos vs. Yamaha Motif XF
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synthguy
Platinum Member

Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject:

NuSkoolTone wrote:

Though FWIW while we're at this pitstop, I'd MUCH rather have an all in one integrated solution vs. a "Menagerie" of junk provided the quality was consistent in the all in one. Managing Technology can be a REAL PITA!

It depends on what you mean by "a menagerie of junk." I find the Yamaha EX5 to be a very nice menagerie of junk, as do a number of people, even though it's about as old as the Triton. It does suffer from that awful Yamaha-think OS though. And I can hardly wait to experience Kronos for myself, and manage all that crazy technology! Very Happy

I do think my post was pretty darn apropos to the discussion, but if you like something more focused, I'd say:

- The Motif XF is a very good example of the old school rompler taken to the next level. Perhaps last.

- The Kronos is a true 21st Century workstation in every sense of the word, if just the first example.

Note: OASYS was just too expensive. $4000 US/ 6000 Euros seems to be the high bar for what the general keyboard market will accept these days. When (if) the world economy gets sorted, that will be a different story.

RonF wrote:

Just want to say to synthguy....that post was epic! Nice! and so well said.

I try to be brilliant and diplomatic at all times. Wink

Of course, I am human, as many of you have noticed in my dumb periods...

Quote:

I mostly agree in every way. When you consider what the Kronos gives you, as compared to just a few years ago's flagship top tier workstations (Oasys not withstanding)....its remarkable what you have in Kronos.

No lie, and I'm hoping the Kronos kicks every synth maker's engineers to make something as awesome. The Kurzweil folk are making some interesting noises, and the Jupiter-80 is looking pretty darn awesome. JP-80 and Kronos would make one heck of a hard to beat tag team!
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keyplayer14
Full Member

Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 160
Location: Exeter

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject:

synthguy wrote:

You can argue that a powerful computer loaded to the last sector with softinstruments and effects is more powerful, but to say that it's better than having a studio full of instruments is opening up a door to a huge debate that will never end or satisfy either side, most likely.

I sincerely doubt Bruce would happily sell his Shigeru for thousands of software apps and hardware to host them. Amirite? Wink

Are the thousands of software apps more powerful? Oh heck yes. Even the best piano in the galaxy is basically a one trick pony. But are they really more desirable?

I think this is where everyone needs a good dose of "think" on this subject. Lord knows I can get cranky when one of my fave companies or instruments is being assaulted. But if you sift through my post history, you'll find that I'm generally pretty ecumenical in my love of instruments. And if you saw my - still slumbering - keyboard arsenal, you'd see I'm pretty gregarious when it comes to all synths and makers. And I will NEVER run out of polyphony! Laughing

11 years ago, I became a KORG convert when my newly purchased Fantom X failed to be the do-all synth I was hoping for. Mostly, it was because of the filters which I found thin and brittle sounding. I bought a Triton on a whim because I recalled that it sounded good in the store. Spending time with it, I was amazed that, in spite a yucky (to me) reverb, it had an amazing sound to it. The wealth of waveforms gave it the ability to craft powerful sounding textures which required sometimes twice as many layers on my landlord's S80, and the filters sounded rich and pretty darn analogish. Still, the Yamaha had some definite sonic advantages - all synths have some - so I decided when I could to buy a Motif module. This was also an age in which softsynths didn't sound great to me at all, and computers just weren't powerful enough to really let them shine anyway. DAWs either.

If I recall correctly, the Triton has 62 voice polyphony, for CPU and effects overhead, so playing it alone required some clever programming on my part. While the Motif module has double the polyphony, I could hear some voice stealing on rare occasions, but I didn't trust it anyway. Long ago, I learned to be frugal with patch layers when I only had an Ensoniq SD-1, originally with just 21 voices! I never lost that programming ethic, and if you're a serious programmer and sound designer as I am, you learn that having a lot of voices sounding at once tends to make a mix sound denser and more cluttered. In this digital age, fewer is better, and it also means you have to worry less about voice stealing.

While Kurzweil seems to be the king of maximizing polyphony, Yamaha is apparently a close second. It seems Yammy uses a variation on Kurzweil's method of grabbing layers which are quieter, not just voices, when max polyphony is threatened. This is a lesson everyone seems to be picking up on.

The Kronos has a huge advantage in that it has a number of engines which allow you to tailor a combi or multitrack mix to a fantastic degree. With the high polyphony and great sound inherent in the MS-20 and Polysix engines, you can make wonderful sounding patches which cut very little into the overall polyphony count, and give the Kronos a theoretical polyphony well beyond 120 voices.

I'm gonna be all over this. With all the utterly amazing sounding instruments in the Kronos, I finally will have an instrument which can essentially do it all, which is something I still can't say about other instruments, including my recently purchased Kurzweil and Alesis, or computer hosted softsynths. Besides, outside of Omnisphere, I really don't care for softsynths other than vintage emulations.

But even then, The K won't completely satisfy me, which is why I'm not dumping my arsenal for one. Maybe I should, considering all it can do, but I just can't let go of these other synths, because everything offers up something unique which gives it value. Just look at Dan's arsenal and drool. Razz

I think the lesson here is that everyone has their faves, everything does something cool, and that should be good enough. Even if the Kronos does pretty much smoke about everything on the market. Sorry, couldn't resist. Wink

By the way, Roland is still my favorite company of all time.

+1 and then some!

What a well constructed and sensible post!

Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member

Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:07 pm Post subject:

synthguy wrote:

If you like your keyboards, I don't think you could ask for a better combo than the Jupiter and Kronos. I don't think the Kronos can do it all, but the Jupiter fills in quite nicely in those areas that the Kronos is not so strong.

When it comes to softsynths, the Spectrasonics trio works great for me. The other companies make great software for programming, but Omnisphere is great to play.
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RonF
Platinum Member

Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject:

Agreed....Omnisphere is the closest softsynth to a hardware synth that I know. It is very expressive....and similar to say...a Virus TI in its implementation. Were Omnisphere to actually BECOME the OS and soundset of a dedicated piece of hardware....it would be the ultimate hardware synthesizer. I don't think we are too far off from that reality....when you consider the power in Kronos today. Imagine a Kronos type hardware with a 50 gig streaming sound ROM, and a graphical interface such as Omnisphere (which is not so complex that it wouldn't work on a Kronos-type touchscreen...given the proper enhanced horsepower in its CPU for those graphics and multi point envelopes). _________________ http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8.

NuSkoolTone
Approved Merchant

Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 1069

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject:

synthguy wrote:

NuSkoolTone wrote:

As a former EX5 Owner, I know all too well. It was way ahead of it's time had it not been for a few shortsighted design decisions. FWIW, I thought the PLG boards for the Motifs never even came CLOSE to what the EX5 offered in that regard.

When I say "Menagerie of Junk" I mean more like a bunch of softsynths that "Do the same thing, but cheaper!" where in reality they do NOT and have to be managed with updates where integration is a buggy exercise in frustration that becomes a chore. Add to that maintaining a computer to keep it running smoothly etc... and it's just a mess that gets in the way vs. creating music IMO.
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apex
Platinum Member

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 2340

Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject:

RonF wrote:

Agreed....Omnisphere is the closest softsynth to a hardware synth that I know. It is very expressive....and similar to say...a Virus TI in its implementation.

Were Omnisphere to actually BECOME the OS and soundset of a dedicated piece of hardware....it would be the ultimate hardware synthesizer. I don't think we are too far off from that reality....when you consider the power in Kronos today. Imagine a Kronos type hardware with a 50 gig streaming sound ROM, and a graphical interface such as Omnisphere (which is not so complex that it wouldn't work on a Kronos-type touchscreen...given the proper enhanced horsepower in its CPU for those graphics and multi point envelopes).

this may be tons closer than you think....
considering that all korg has to do is implement user streaming samples .....who really knows how large or a drive you can put in the kronos...guys are already upgrading the ram on their own....

may be way closer than you think.
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Dany
Senior Member

Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 352

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:21 am Post subject:

RonF wrote:

Running Omnisphere on one of those things: http://www.openlabs.com/mikolxd.html, http://www.openlabs.com/nekoxxl.html, already transforms it immediately into a perfect hardware synth, with plenty of realtime controllers AND a touchscreen (which really works very well with Omnisphere) and it will give you the same haptic experience and intuitiv feeling, while using Omnisphere, like using a good old analogue synth, with superiour sound quality. My OpenLabs MiKo never ever crashed and it's therefore as reliable as any hardware synth on stage! Even though it's finally a high-end PC with a fine tuned Windows7 (OpenLabsEdition), the system is more powerful and reliable, than a regular PC-Windows-DAW configuration with similar specifications. And you have a better output level, than just with a usual external soundcard, because OpenLabs added some pre amps.

I am quite convinced that Spectrasonics' Eric Persing will offer the whole Omnsisphere/Trilain/StylusRMX software in a hardware product sooner or later...

BTW: Eric Persing has already designed this hardware prototype, the OMG-1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFgb-C5ss3w

-

Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member

Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856

Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:32 am Post subject:

Dany wrote:

RonF wrote:

I just started using the Air Display on the IPad2 and it works really well with Omnisphere. I was really surprised there is no lag. I almost bought an OpenLabs from a friend but I wasn't totally convinced it was right for me. Right now Im using the Novatiion SL MKii as a controller.
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madbeatzyo111
Guest

Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Posts: 379

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject:

Sharp wrote:

Quote:

And then a reprimand from Sharp

Err.... a reprimand ?
lol... Very Happy

What I said is far from anything even remotely close to being a reprimand.

Been gone a few days, but yes in restrospect I agree it was pretty mild. Keep in mind however that whenever Sharp speaks, the words tend to have greater impact Wink

And when I wrote "charming" I meant that KF is as entertaining as usual (ie, not directed at anybody in particular).

madbeatzyo111
Guest

Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Posts: 379

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject:

danatkorg wrote:

madbeatzyo111 wrote:

NuSkoolTone was arguing based on a mathematical calculation possibly a little over-enthusiastically, while everyone else was refuting it by expressing various incarnations of "my musicianship could beat up your musicianship."

That summary doesn't seem to match up with the actual thread.

Ok let me re-phrase then. Nuskooltone argued that with the Motif XS, he doesn't run out of poly (and gave a hypothetical worst case scenario of 4 elements/3 osc per voice giving 10 notes of actual poly, etc.) while aron and others argued that they did frequently max out the XS in real-world usage.

Personally I was quite interested as regards this discrepancy and felt the answer would be elucidated in the next few posts, but somehow the thread then got derailed into a debate about civility and who was more condescending to whom, what it takes to be regarded as a"valued" member, and so forth.

EXer
Platinum Member

Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Location: France

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject:

synthguy wrote:

[...] I find the Yamaha EX5 to be a very nice menagerie of junk, as do a number of people, even though it's about as old as the Triton. [...]

I do, too

synthguy wrote:

[...] It does suffer from that awful Yamaha-think OS though. [...]

Do you own one?

I find its user interface very well thought out and very logical.

Of course, it does not give the user a global picture of a patch, owing to the small screen, but that's a constraint every digital synth had until the emergence of bigger screens, and I find its UI is close to optimal given that constraint.

Example in Voice Edit mode: you have the following tabs : common, oscillators, pitch, filters, amp, LFOs, controller matrix, effects.
When you jump e.g. to the filters, you have the following tabs: static controlled filters, dynamic controlled filters, sensitivity, scaling, envelope generator.
When you jump e.g. to the DCF, the screen displays a graphic representation of the frequency response curve of the filters according to their type (24dB/oct 'analog' LP, 24dB/oct digital LP, 12dB/oct LP, HP, etc.) and to the way they are connected (serial/parallel); you can use the knobs under the screen to adjust their cut-off frequencies and their resonance, and the graphic representation is updated in real time as you tweak.
Then, when you jump e.g. to the filter EG, you have a graphic representation of the envelope, and you can tweak all the parametres with the 6 knobs located under the screen and the envelope is updated in real time while you turn them...

• Which logic would have been better given the constraint of optimizing the UI for a small screen?

The sequencer is well thought out too, still given the small size of the screen and the fact that the instrument had been released in 1998.

I must say I'm so used to the EX5 UI that when I was on the edit screen of the envelope generator of the Kronos for the first time, I was a bit confused because I couldn't find the knobs I was searching instinctively under the screen to adjust the levels and the times...

synthguy
Platinum Member

Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:58 pm Post subject:

EXer wrote:

I find its user interface very well thought out and very logical.

The examples you give are very good, and it has been a while since I've been able to mess with one. But when it comes to navigating around all the features in a Yamaha instrument, the OS definitely intrudes more than with other synths. Unfortunately, this became the case with the Fantom X as well. Any time I needed to record a sequence, I had to keep the manual handy. Why they changed their wonderful system is beyond me.

I did finally get around to playing a MoXF yesterday, and the guitars are very good. The OS is still the usual Yamaha menu confusion and button fest that takes some getting used to. But I have to say that it's just not worth $3000 to me. I'd much rather have a Jupiter-80. And a Kronos, of course. Wink

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