Sequencer not saving patches-SOLVED

miden · Post by **miden** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:24 pm

I am importing a midi file, then assigning factory patches to the various tracks. I go to Disk and then select Save SEQ.

Then when I re-load that saved .sng it loads and plays, but still reverts to the original GM patch data in the midi....

IE the save process is NOT overwriting the patches....

I am loading it using CLEAR as this then clears out the existing data in the Sequencer and I would have assumed then loaded the saved seq/song AS SAVED.

Do I need to save it first using the Save as smf option first, then re-load that smf and THEN save it is a song?? Seems a rather convoluted method if that's the case.

Interesting to note that if I embed the patch changes into midi using Sonar (and the Kronos INS file) the patches get loaded and recalled correctly.

This leads me to suspect there may be some sort of bug perhaps in the Sequencer mode when dealing with imported midis???? I believe I need not use the save ALL option as it is ONLY a midi file.....but I am still getting used to the "Korg Sequencer" way of things so I may be wrong....

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:30 pm

That's not a bug. Most midi files have a program change per channel. So this is standard behaviour. Just remove or filter those program changes like you would need to do in every synth or daw.

miden · Post by **miden** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:53 pm

qrobinez wrote:That's not a bug. Most midi files have a program change per channel. So this is standard behaviour. Just remove or filter those program changes like you would need to do in every synth or daw.

Yes I would have thought not either.. Still does not get around the Save Sequence not over-writing the patch data when it has clearly been changed in the Sequencer view page......which is, after all, STANDARD sequencer (any) operating procedure...

SoundsOfPlanet · Post by **SoundsOfPlanet** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:11 pm

Hi
The first beat of the song is the ( data GM )- you have to delete them.

miden · Post by **miden** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:20 pm

SoundsOfPlanet wrote:Hi
The first beat of the song is the ( data GM )- you have to delete them.

It's actually the midi header bar that is hidden fyi....I err, DO know what I am talking about. When a smf is saved with new patch data S.O.P. is for this header file to be over-written. There is NO need to manually delete anything.
For some reason the Sequence Save is NOT doing this.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:53 pm

Imported MIDI files program change, volume, and pan settings are in the first bar which in the sequencer, is still just 'the first bar'. You can either delete those events or you can filter them out with the track's MIDI filters.
That's the way it works. They aren't hidden.

Afaik, the 'current program' is the one stored in the SNG file and program change messages in the track effectively overwrite or reconfigure that value as they are played through. So as soon as you start playing the track, the programs will change back again.

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:58 pm

miden wrote:It's actually the midi header bar that is hidden fyi....I err, DO know what I am talking about. When a smf is saved with new patch data S.O.P. is for this header file to be over-written. There is NO need to manually delete anything.
For some reason the Sequence Save is NOT doing this.

no it's not saving that, because that would be a bug if it did and it would destroy the program changes that you've used in a midi file.

A midi file convention is that when a program change is sent then the program changes, and it always overwrite the previous program you used on that timbre.

miden · Post by **miden** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:10 am

X-Trade wrote:Imported MIDI files program change, volume, and pan settings are in the first bar which in the sequencer, is still just 'the first bar'. You can either delete those events or you can filter them out with the track's MIDI filters.
That's the way it works. They aren't hidden.

Afaik, the 'current program' is the one stored in the SNG file and program change messages in the track effectively overwrite or reconfigure that value as they are played through. So as soon as you start playing the track, the programs will change back again.

Well, yes...okay wrong choice of words. In most sequencing apps this "header bar" is displayed as not part of the track data, but rather in various "inspector sections" and views...In any case we are talking about the same thing so no problems.

And these are songs I have re-programmed myself (in Sonar) so I KNOW there are no patch changes embedded in the tracks either.

I have discovered an interesting thing though...if I save the imported file as a SMF (as per the drop-down menu in Disk mode) it DOES save the patch data, yet saving the exact same file -with no changes- to a SEQ does not!!!??? Now why this is and what is going on I don't know yet, but I will figure it out....Might have to further investigate the SEQ format....

Oboemd · Post by **Oboemd** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:00 pm

Is it that when a smf is created, program change command is automatically created whereas when using Korg specific seq no command is created.
Therefore importing a smf brings with it program change info that is not filtered out automatically when a smf is saved to korg format. You would therefore have to simply go to midi filter page and uncheck "enable program change" for each track used before saving to "save seq".
option 2 Use track edit: in meas 1 change prog bank and no. to desired event data before saving.
Again this info is not automatically created or needed in the Korg format, it simply saves the "patches selected" the command is not filtered from smf files. I would guess the assumption is if the command is there it's to tell different devices what patch/program/preset to play across a wide range of devices.

miden · Post by **miden** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:33 pm

Oboemd wrote:Is it that when a smf is created, program change command is automatically created whereas when using Korg specific seq no command is created.
Therefore importing a smf brings with it program change info that is not filtered out automatically when a smf is saved to korg format. You would therefore have to simply go to midi filter page and uncheck "enable program change" for each track used before saving to "save seq".
option 2 Use track edit: in meas 1 change prog bank and no. to desired event data before saving.
Again this info is not automatically created or needed in the Korg format, it simply saves the "patches selected" the command is not filtered from smf files. I would guess the assumption is if the command is there it's to tell different devices what patch/program/preset to play across a wide range of devices.

Yes thanks, that makes sense...

miden · Post by **miden** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:54 pm

Tried a couple of more experiments....The midis I had set up using patches saved with Sonar still loaded the coreect patches, so I thought I would try and change them using the Kronos Seqencer...went through the Save Seq command again, and nope the patch changes did NOT get saved it still retained the original patch data and did not save the changes !!!

Saving as a SEQ does not save the patch data selected for each track...now this is either a bug or a severe limitation of the sequence mode, OR I am still doing something wrong and I cannot see it......

By the way, I tried also the previous posters idea about disabling the Program change when importing and then saving the SEQ....same result, except this time all the patches were the GM default load of bank 1 patch 1 IE there were NO patches at all....and method 2 is SO awkward and fiddly it is a waste of time for a task so simple that SHOULD be done simply by saving as a SEQ...

Anyway investigations continue....

miden · Post by **miden** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:55 pm

I have now been through the Operater Guide, Parameter Guide and the Quick start.... I have erased the master track, I have tried all methods of editing as per the manuals, and STILL saving as a SEQ does NOT save Patch data...

I re-loaded the "SMF" I saved yesterday and it did not save the patch changes either - I thought it did yesterday, but that was because I loaded it without doing a Song Initialise first, so the existing patch data was still present and I assumed it had loaded the "saved" patches...I did not "play" the song as I did this morning to test it again....

I have deleted ALL program changes I can find in the midi file, then applied patch changes in the Sequencer main view page, then saved it again as a SEQ....again, even though the main Sequencer page shows the changes the save as SEQ does NOT save them to the file. Load up the saved .sng into an initialised song and all the original patch data keeps re-appearing....

I am now going to list this as a bug in OS 1.6 Sequencer Mode....OR go back to a Yamaha Motif XF......

For such a BASIC task as....

1.Load a SMF
2.Change the patch
3.Save it as a SEQ

this is getting ridiculous...it is so basic a midi editing procedure...

Shakil · Post by **Shakil** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:21 pm

miden...

Let's first try to get the terminology. Just to make sure we understand what you are referring to.

What do you mean by 'patch data'? If you mean just selecting different programs for a track..

Then....

In your stetps....
1.Load a SMF
2.Change the patch
3.Save it as a SEQ

You need to add a step after #1.
#1.a DELETE Program Changes from all tracks.
Then #2. Select Prgorams you want on the tracks.

If by 'patch data', you mean the complete patch parameters for each part, like you can do for ROLAND and YAMAHA songs, then note that it doesn't work like that on KORG. You can't modify patch in detail on sequencer mode. The sequencer only has program changes in MIDI file.

If you export Song from SEQ to SMF, then it only exports whatever is recorded on tracks and Track Patameters (Level, Pan, Bank Select, Program Selected). The complete Patch Data is not saved as Sysex in header measure, like it's done on Roland and Yamaha.

miden · Post by **miden** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Thanks Shakil...that additional step is not noted in the manuals, and indeed, is not USUALLY required in the midi way of doing things, where this data is automatically over-written...but I will try it nonetheless..

Where is this command located?

Yes I do know that editing of patches as well as efx settings are a separate operation

All I want to do here is save a patch (or Program in Korg parlance) to a specified midi track

Shakil · Post by **Shakil** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:30 pm

miden wrote:Thanks Shakil...that additional step is not noted in the manuals, and indeed, is not USUALLY reuqired in the midi way of doing things...but I will try it nonetheless..

Where is this command located?

Yes I do know that editing of patches as well as efx settings are a separate operation

All I want to do here is save a patch (or Program in Korg parlance) to a specified midi track

Miden,

That extra step is required in ALL situations in MIDI way of doing things. I have to do this for all workstations, YAMAHA, ROLAND, KORG... whenever you import a SMF that has program changes. Unless you delete the Program changes midi messages in DAW and uncheck GM Reset option, before exporting to SMF.