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Francois
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 4339
Location: Northants - UK
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 Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Chriskk wrote: | | When was the last time the best selling synth = the best synth? |
You're right. The Solaris will sell a fraction of the figure the JP80 will sell. 
However, sales figures are very relevant to the very future of this synth, because if poor sales continue, then Roland will drop it and move on to something else. And this means no more evolution or support.
Secondly, it's not like synth manufacturers make millions out of making synths. So I'd rather see Roland and others do well when they launch a new product. We've lost too many good brands already. |
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keyplayer14
Full Member
Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 151
Location: Devon, United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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The price put me off for a long time, but in the end I was swayed by a combination of the iPad offer and a great deal on an immaculate ex display unit. I'm glad I did!
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Korg Kronos 88, Trinity Plus, Wavestation SR, X5D, M1
Roland RD 700, V-Synth GT, Jupiter 80, JV 1080
Akai MPD32, Cubase 5, NI Komplete, Spectrasonics Omnisphere, Stylus RMX |
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Chriskk
Senior Member
Joined: 10 May 2011
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | However, sales figures are very relevant to the very future of this synth, because if poor sales continue, then Roland will drop it and move on to something else. And this means no more evolution or support.
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I agree 100%. It's a shame that the hardware synth market has shrunken so much since the mid & late 80's. For Yamaha and Roland, the synth market isn't among their top priorities. |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1138
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Chriskk wrote: | | For Yamaha and Roland, the synth market isn't among their top priorities. |
I don't know if I fully agree with this statement. Well *TOP* priority its hard to say...but A serious priority I think both companies DO still focus on their flagship synth/keyboard. Roland took the JP80 roll out very seriously. I think Yamaha did too with the XF. What I see is that, rather than particularly focusing on what the "competition" is doing, they seem to me to be acting like most consumer electronics manufacturers...trying to "time the market".
That is the thing with consumer electronics...its very hit and miss. You either develop the "trend setter" and something that is the "new cool", or you flop with average to poor results. Its hard to forecast and time the market...and that is what I see both Yamaha and Roland doing.....trying to establish a new trend with new tech, rather than competing directly with Korg for the ultimate workstation.
The push with JP80 was the new SuperNatural tech, and it being a "performance" keyboard. Even with the GAIA, it was marketed as a new era synth, its size, its price, its sounds. Yamaha was similar with its flash ram memory with the XF. All of this is trying to time a winner on the market, and set a new modern trend.
You can see this similarly all over the place in consumer electronics. Take the mobile phone market as an example. You have dozens and dozens of makes, form factors, carriers, features, etc. Yet many are just received by consumers as "me too" products....while others (the Samsung Galaxy Note is the current trendy example) break ground and become the new cool. Its all about timing. Using the Galaxy Note as an example again....many manufacturers have released large form factors, and Pen/Stylus/PDA's for decades with a resounding flop. Now....for some reason, now.....a huge tablet/phone PDA hybrid is the hottest new trend. Now its "hip". Pushed Samsung over the top as the number one mobile phone developer. Why? The timing of popular culture! Thats all. That is what all these consumer electronics makers aspire to. Its the Korg M1. The Yamy DX7. Or the resurgence of the Rolly Jupiter 8. Why these things stick and take off is a mystery of the Gods. But when they do....Home Run!
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http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Fantom G, GAIA, SPD-30, Juno 106, RE-201, MC808, RC50, MV8800, Kurz PC3, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, Arturia Origin, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld. |
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michelkeijzers
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 6928
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Chriskk wrote: | | For Yamaha and Roland, the synth market isn't among their top priorities. |
I don't know if I would agree for Roland, for Yamaha I think it's true. Of course they have the Motif XF and although it sounds ok, there are not many changes the last 10 years inside the Motif. I really hope they are for years busy with developing a next synth otherwise they might miss the boat in the following years, assuming Korg is already working at Kronos 2 (or another successor).
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see http://pcgtools.mkspace.nl |
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kanout
Junior Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hey guys:
You have to realize some people want the highest tec specs...and other people want stability,reliability etc..
It's more complicated than"the more in the box is the best"..
I totally understand some people find the jupiter 80 too expensive for the way the are buying a synth...but where is the truth?
I know very well the motif XF,i'm very happy with my jupiter,i don't think they are old technology(for the motif)or too expensive(for the roland)because they are rugged hardware synths..and for me it's the basic!
The old motif technology is easy to master if you had all the motifs before!
It's efficient when some people want to play more than learning.
It's not a bad thing!
The jupiter reliability,stability is perfect in use..and some people like me can be happy to buy it at this price..
Because it represent all my priority for a gig machine..and when i'm putting my fingers on it i have some musical sensitive feel i don't have for the kronos(for exemple).
Price is not all:
I would pay more than the actually kronos price for a reliable and stable kronos...(a kronos in the jupiter 80 metal and stability),but actually a can't!
(i'm not speaking of sounds,all these 3 synths have so many good sounds..so it's a personal taste.)
The problem in france for the jupiter 80 is the kronos distribution and support.
Some power users never encourage the jupiter choice in some of the most viewed forums..
They always support kronos choice,and sometimes it's very funny to read this choice for beginners!
Korg has the most important distributor in france,and resellers don't want to say bad things about it.
I personnaly know some resellers who are experiment kronos problems..,and some kronos power users,and they mask the problem they have with it to stay positive in forums.
They experiment problems at home,but never write about it!
I can understand this fan attitude,but when these people speak about the jupiter,some are bashing..
And i can't say more because some are my friends..
Some beginners who have money bought the kronos(to do nothing more than puttin one finger on the keyboard to listen a karma combi....)just because some of the most active power users and forum guru bough it!
But if you see all the kronos you an find in the second hand market...you understand more the delusion.
If i was the roland distributor..grrr.
But the roland distributor isn't as big as the korg.
Nobody support the roland except some power user like cello,me and some others..
This don't explain all the problem ,but maybe a part of it! |
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Francois
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 4339
Location: Northants - UK
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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What a lot of... hum... what shall we call this. Let's say non-sense.
| Quote: | | they mask the problem they have with it to stay positive in forums. They experiment problems at home,but never write about it! |
I don't know who THEY are, but that's not at all my experience and I'm a moderator of a large forum. When people have a problem with their Kronos, they talk about it ! And more often than not, even people who don't have one talk about problems !
| Quote: | | But if you see all the kronos you an find in the second hand market.. |
That is YOUR interpretation. Mine is that if something sells 10 times more than something else, it's quite normal to see 10 times more on the second-hand market too !
| Quote: | | They always support kronos choice,and sometimes it's very funny to read this choice for beginners! |
The Jupiter 80 is just as bad a choice for beginners as the Kronos. Somebody who's buying his first keyboard should get something like an M50 or Yamaha MOX.
However, this fails to take into account that some beginners 1- have the funds and 2- want to buy something high-end. So given 1 and 2, who am I to tell these people not to buy a Kronos. Their money, their choice
The only thing I can do is try and help by answering questions in forums. And if more people would do like me as opposed to simply being negative and moaning about things all the times, forums would be a much more helpful place for said beginners.
| Quote: | | The problem in france for the jupiter 80 is the kronos distribution and support. |
Again, non-sense. It's not just in France that the Jupiter 80 is not selling well. I talk a lot to UK resellers, and the story is the same here too. The J80 has been badly pitched in terms of price, full stop.
As for bashing the Jupiter 80, again, I don't know where you read this, but I don't read the same thing. The Jupiter 80 is a great machine, with its own idiosyncrasies, which produces great sounds. Some users will prefer the ergonomy of other synths, but that's a personal choice.
The ONLY problem with the Jupiter 80 is the price. You say "price is not all". That may be, but for most of us, it's still the main factor as to why we buy a synth. And you can say what you want, but pound for pound, the Kronos makes more sense. No need to try and find another reason as to why it outsells the Jupiter. And it's certainly not due to reseller network or people bad-mouthing it.
Then again, you're free to believe what you want, as am I.
Last edited by Francois on Tue May 22, 2012 9:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cello
Platinum Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2109
Location: Glasgow, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Just a thought - but perhaps Roland wanted it to be a niche product so priced it accordingly?
Look at the OASYS - it certainly wasn't priced as a mass market 'device' like an iPad or something. (Please note - I am in NO WAY comparing the functionality of the OASYS to the JP-80!!!!!)
However, in relative terms and markets, that could be the strategy. I don't know.
In some ways I'm almost pleased that the JP-80 isn't selling 'well' (by the way, what determines if it is, or isn't, selling 'well'?) - it means I am creating new sounds that not many other people can!  (I know - very selfish view that doesn't make commercial/support/development sense - but couldn't resist saying it! LOL  )
Edited to add - in some ways the lack of activity in the JP-80 section of the relevant forum elsewhere seems to support the lack of 'mass' sales...
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Plugged in:Fantom G6, Jupiter-80, V-Synth GTv2, XV5050, SRV330, Symphony Module, ER mk2, D3200, iMS20, iPolysix, Alesis M1 Active Mk2
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Francois
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 4339
Location: Northants - UK
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| cello wrote: | | Just a thought - but perhaps Roland wanted it to be a niche product so priced it accordingly? |
Somehow, I doubt that. What company markets goods hoping they will only sell confidential amounts? Roland went to town when releasing the Jupiter 80, recruiting Howard Jones to say good things about it and so on.
If I were a betting man, which I'm not, I'd put my money on the Roland marketing team having their eyes bigger than their belly! |
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kanout
Junior Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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francois:
| Quote: | | I don't know who THEY are, but that's not at all my experience and I'm a moderator of a large forum. When people have a problem with their Kronos, they talk about it ! And more often than not, even people who don't have one talk about problems ! |
The net is more large than your personal occidental vision and the french forum where you are moderator..
You've got an interesting point of view...as a good power user,but you're not THE reference..
There are kronos buyers you don't see in your forum.
In my family we have a BIG shop(more than so many french shops.)and we are selling more motifs than kronos;....
I said that thousand times,but forums are not the only reference!
There are so many places in the world where pro musicians are playing as incredible keyboardists...outside of the tec specs places..
They need reliable keyboards,not 9 engines...to play in a hotel,to play live in a lost place with humidity.
These keyboard players aren't often in forums...they play some traditional jazz,latin,pop rock blues or ethnic...and they don't care about kronos!
Imagine a keyboard player in africa or india,far from a technical center....who don't speak english,and don't master a computer!!!
Imagine a musician who play gigs on islands,far again from a technical center...island you travel by boat or little planes..
What can they do with a kronos?
Do you think the kronos is the best choice for them or a motif XF or a jupiter?
| Quote: | | That is YOUR interpretation. Mine is that if something sells 10 times more than something else, it's quite normal to see 10 times more on the second-hand market too ! |
i totally understand your point of view...this is true:more buyers-more sellers...
But i think there is a relation between all i said and that point,even if it's not all.
| Quote: | | The Jupiter 80 is just as bad a choice for beginners as the Kronos. Somebody who's buying his first keyboard should get something like an M50 or Yamaha MOX |
I disagree about your jupiter vision for beginners..
As a jupiter 80 owner(and a ex kronos and M3 user who mastered a little from korg system(hd1 sequencing,karma etc..),i think it is better than the kronos for a beginner.
You are so sure but you don't master and play the jupiter 80.
| Quote: | | As for bashing the Jupiter 80, again, I don't know where you read this, but I don't read the same thing |
i saw that in your forum this week(for exemple):
A beginner who hesitate between the jupiter 80(he said he loves the sounds..)and a motif Xf wanted some help.
Everybody(and some of the kronos fan club )post to tell him not to take the jupiter...
It was so strange to read...so funny and so caricatural!
| Quote: | Again, non-sense. It's not just in France that the Jupiter 80 is not selling well. I talk a lot to UK resellers, and the story is the same here too. The J80 has been badly pitched in terms of price, full stop.
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Yes full stop boss!
You are convinced by your price theory....i think it's a part of the reason,but only a part!
If there was a jupiter oriented vision in your forum(where the boss is a reseller..)i think some more jupiter where being sold!
So many people excuse all the buggy and reliability problems of the kronos...but never excuse the jupiter 80(more stable and reliable..)
Strange again..
Cello wrote:
| Quote: | | n some ways I'm almost pleased that the JP-80 isn't selling 'well' (by the way, what determines if it is, or isn't, selling 'well'?) - it means I am creating new sounds that not many other people can! (I know - very selfish view that doesn't make commercial/support/development sense - but couldn't resist saying it! LOL ) |
I agree with you cello.
I think we are sounding different from numerous people who have the best selling machine..
But i hope roland will sell it more to continue his devellopement,because it has a good and stable os for that(and efficient cpu usage for what it does..)
Just to precise:
it's not against you francois...i know you are not the man who post bad things about the jupiter..
I understand you vision oriented by your culture..i 've got a different vision and culture than you..nothing bad or good,just different.
Last edited by kanout on Tue May 22, 2012 10:26 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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cello
Platinum Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2109
Location: Glasgow, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Francois wrote: | | cello wrote: | | Just a thought - but perhaps Roland wanted it to be a niche product so priced it accordingly? |
Somehow, I doubt that. What company markets goods hoping they will only sell confidential amounts? Roland went to town when releasing the Jupiter 80, recruiting Howard Jones to say good things about it and so on.
If I were a betting man, which I'm not, I'd put my money on the Roland marketing team having their eyes bigger than their belly! |
That wasn't quite my point - I'm sure I didn't make it well though...
What I meant was if Roland have produced 1,000 JP-80 units and have sold 95% of them but Korg have made 10,000 Kronos units but have only sold 60% of them - which is the better selling keyboard (from the manufacturers point of view)? We then have to get into manufacturing unit costs, profit per unit, R&D amortisation between units (easier with JP-80 as only one keybed option), remainder stock costing, effect of clearing excess stock at reduced margin, projected life-cycle, strategic 'next steps' in development (ie JP-50 - like the OASYS -> Kronos), etc, etc.
Yes, the JP-80 is expensive, but quality costs, right?
As I said, it was just a thought re niche product. Maybe the JP-80 is a 'failure' - but in what terms?
I don't mind a bit if the JP-80 is seen as 'failure' - it's still great; just like the OASYS is (which by the way, was seen as a failure by some as it only sold 3,000+ units). The combination is phenomenally good - and if I'm one of the few that has that combination, then I'm lucky indeed.
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Plugged in:Fantom G6, Jupiter-80, V-Synth GTv2, XV5050, SRV330, Symphony Module, ER mk2, D3200, iMS20, iPolysix, Alesis M1 Active Mk2
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 532
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| cello wrote: | | Just a thought - but perhaps Roland wanted it to be a niche product so priced it accordingly? |
That's a good point. Not that we even really know how many Jupiter 80s are selling and whether sales are meeting Roland's expectations. But sometimes a company designs a "statement piece" that they expect to sell in relatively limited quantity, but serves to establish a "mindshare" which generates greater sales of subsequent models with more mass appeal.
It will be interesting to see whether the Jupiter 50 is a great success. If it is, it will be partly attributable to the reputation of the Jupiter 80 as being a desirable (albeit pricey) piece of technology.
Last edited by Scott on Tue May 22, 2012 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kanout
Junior Member
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| hope this is true...for future devellopments! |
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cello
Platinum Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2109
Location: Glasgow, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | | cello wrote: | Just a thought - but perhaps Roland wanted it to be a niche product so priced it accordingly?
Look at the OASYS - it certainly wasn't priced as a mass market 'device' like an iPad or something. (Please note - I am in NO WAY comparing the functionality of the OASYS to the JP-80!!!!!)
However, in relative terms and markets, that could be the strategy. I don't know. |
That's a good point. Not that we even really know how many Jupiter 80s are selling and whether sales are meeting Roland's expectations. But sometimes a company designs a "statement piece" that they expect to sell in relatively limited quantity, but serves to establish a "mindshare" which generates greater sales of subsequent models with more mass appeal.
It will be interesting to see whether the Jupiter 50 is a great success. If it is, it will be partly attributable to the reputation of the Jupiter 80 as being a desirable (albeit pricey) piece of technology. |
Indeed - will be interesting to see how that plays out. (Just as with the OASYS -> Kronos albeit not concurrently)
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Plugged in:Fantom G6, Jupiter-80, V-Synth GTv2, XV5050, SRV330, Symphony Module, ER mk2, D3200, iMS20, iPolysix, Alesis M1 Active Mk2
www.soundcloud.com/ngowans
Repository of Sound
Last edited by cello on Tue May 22, 2012 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cello
Platinum Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2109
Location: Glasgow, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kanout wrote: | | hope this is true...for future devellopments! |
+1!
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Plugged in:Fantom G6, Jupiter-80, V-Synth GTv2, XV5050, SRV330, Symphony Module, ER mk2, D3200, iMS20, iPolysix, Alesis M1 Active Mk2
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