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nitecrawler
Platinum Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 975
Location: from a mile high to the the AZ desert
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 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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people[/quote]
Yes I can just see the promotion ads......
Korg offers a free case with every new Kronos
Roland offers a free Ipad with every new Jupiter 80
Yamaha offers a pair of incontinence pants with every new tyros!!!
 [/quote]
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Montage M7, Pa5x76, Nautilus, PA3Xle, Oasys 76, Mini-Moog, EMU Audity 2000, Motion Sound KBR 3D amp, Presonus and Reaper DAW W/Tannoy Reveal 501A powered monitors |
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Shakil
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 1169
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:59 am Post subject: |
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TYROS has much more powerful sample based sound generator...
It has upto 8 Oscillators per program, and each Oscillator can have a Multisample that can have upto 128 velocity switched layers..... This is what gives the TYROS those super articulated sounds. OASYS does not have this capability (8 oscillators per program and 128 layers switched multisamples).
The Styles are nice too.
But, other that those two things, everything else is much much better in OASYS and KRONOS.... including effects routing, sequencer, KARMA, build quality, keys, sampling capability, hard disk audio recording, screen, controls, keys, RAM.....
But, as Sharp said, Tyros 4 should be compared to Korg PA series, not OASYS/KRONOS.
With the flight simulator analogy...... OASYS/KRONOS are the real workstations and Tyros 4 is more like a simulator.
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | TYROS has much more powerful sample based sound generator...
It has upto 8 Oscillators per program, and each Oscillator can have a Multisample that can have upto 128 velocity switched layers..... This is what gives the TYROS those super articulated sounds. OASYS does not have this capability (8 oscillators per program and 128 layers switched multisamples). |
On OASYS a single OSC can have 4 stereo layers. A single program then has two OSC's, so now your up to 8 Stereo layers and 2 OSC's. A single COMBI can have 16 programs, all running 2 OSC's each times 8 layers each.
So no matter what way you look at this, you can far exceed the Tyros in layers an OSC's by many many times. Even if you use all the Tyros programs at the same time.
HD-1 is infinitely deeper and more advanced in every to the Tyros sound engine.
Regards
Sharp. |
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Shakil
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 1169
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | | Quote: | TYROS has much more powerful sample based sound generator...
It has upto 8 Oscillators per program, and each Oscillator can have a Multisample that can have upto 128 velocity switched layers..... This is what gives the TYROS those super articulated sounds. OASYS does not have this capability (8 oscillators per program and 128 layers switched multisamples). |
On OASYS a single OSC can have 4 stereo layers. A single program then has two OSC's, so now your up to 8 Stereo layers and 2 OSC's. A single COMBI can have 16 programs, all running 2 OSC's each times 8 layers each.
So no matter what way you look at this, you can far exceed the Tyros in layers an OSC's by many many times. Even if you use all the Tyros programs at the same time.
HD-1 is infinitely deeper and more advanced in every to the Tyros sound engine.
Regards
Sharp. |
The difference is that on Tyros you need only on osc for 128 velocity layers.... on OASYS... you need on full combi..
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Dr. Who
Junior Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Yamaha Tyros 4 versus Oasys |
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| jgsidak wrote: | Has anyone tried out a Yamaha Tyros 4? If so, how does it compare to the Oasys?
At $5299, is it substantially better than a Korg Kronos? |
Gotta say it’s odd that there is so much Tyros love here (due to the super articulation)… OK like has been stated before, you can’t really compare a Tyros to an OASYS as in what is better. You should compare the Tyros to other arrangers. The OASYS is a professional piece of studio equipment (sure you can gig with it too but wow it’s heavy!). Arrangers are typically used either by hobbyist or for gigging musicians that need a band in a box for accompaniment. The OASYS’ allure is the multiple synth engines, sound programming capabilities and it’s wonderful sound (insert promo for Sharp’s OASYS Assault here; fantastic work!). For me it’s studio use that I use the OASYS for; gigging with an 88 key is not an option for me but a 61 key Kronos would be quite nice to gig with. The Tyros is an arranger plain and simple. If you need an arranger give the Tyros a look along with the other arrangers out there. If you need a piece of professional studio equipment with multiple sound engines give the OASYS/Kronos a whirl.
The selling point of “super articulation” and “realistic” sounding instruments in a Tyros is a bit of a ruse. Before the Yammy fanboys flame me, let me explain… Yamaha has been known for a while now of having the more realistic sounding acoustic instruments, however if you are honestly looking for truly “realistic” acoustic instruments you will not find them in a Tyros or OASYS for that matter. You will find them in software. You’re better off buying a cheap second hand easily programmable arranger, picking up a Muse Receptor loaded with Kontakt and load it up with orchestral and guitar sample libraries. Even the preset Kontakt VSL orchestral sample libraries put the Tyros/OASYS to shame. Do the work in the studio or at home programming your styles running them via midi to the Receptor using that as your sound module. Once they sound good, you’re ready for the road. Then when you play live you have a full orchestral/guitar/choral/vintage synth arsenal at your arranger’s disposal plus whatever other VST’s you have loaded. I’ve used this set-up live and it’s pretty phenomenal.
So it depends what you want. If you want a simple arranger as a hobbyist, buy a cheaper one (the Tyros is way over priced) unless you have money to burn and don’t mind overpaying for the sound of the Tryos. If you are interested in studio gear and need a true workstation, the OASYS/Kronos route would be better suited. If you plan on playing live gigs and need an arranger, look at not only the Tyros, but the PAx series and Ketrons; weight the sound/cost and programmability of each one. If you really want to wow your audience with amazing realistic sounds look at a Muse Receptor triggered from a cheap used arranger. Note the drawback to the Receptor is a.) it’s expensive (still cheaper than a 5k Tyros) b.) It isn’t a fully open system (It’s Linux based and you can only install certain VSTs; i.e. East/West Play engine is still not supported). But by using only boutique Kontakt libraries you will blow the doors off of any acoustic emulations available by all keyboards on the market. I also use my Receptor’s acoustic/orchestral libraries for movie scoring; you simply can’t do that with any keyboard or sound module. FYI I own too many synths (and several arrangers) to count from all manufacturers. I’m not biased to one company or another. Dunno if it helps, but wanted to give a few other options to you depending upon what you are looking for. |
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worth
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1096
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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i am not a yamaha fan boy before anyone concludes that. I just dont like the way folks here dumb down a product just because it is an arranger.
I hear a lot of talk about what could be done with VSTs combined with a cheap arranger but i wouldlove for some one to actually demonstrate this with say just 10 styles, each style having four variations plus fills and breaks and with 4 one touch settings per variation per style.
Tell us how long it would take to programme all of this and then do a quick demo on you tube showing what happened every time you change style or variation in real time just like a gigging musician would.
There is a product called liontracs Media station which purported to be able to be programmed in exactly the way you have suggested . It was marketed as the mother of all arrangers because of its openess in terms of accepting the best VST on offer. It was a horrible failure because of the complexity of trying to achieve what you have just described ,
If it you believe it is an easy thing to achieve , to marry an arranger and its functions to VST's in the way you have described please demo this with just say 5 styles.
I am glad that someone on here actually owns an arranger so potentially can demo this for me I genuinely would love to see it done.
By the way i own the Korg PA1X arranegr and would love to update the sounds |
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Mike Conway
Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2433
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Shakil wrote: | | The difference is that on Tyros you need only on osc for 128 velocity layers.... on OASYS... you need on full combi.. |
I don't know that I would ever use this, but you should be able to put two (up to four, actually) 64 step Wave Sequences (with RUN set to "off" and Position and/or Steps controlled by Velocity/AMS) on a single oscillator. I've certainly done it with 64 steps and velocity.
Another really cool application is to use After Touch (instead of velocity) to step through different samples. When I get around to it, I'm going to sample myself and make a program where the keyboard moans when I touch it. The harder I press on it, the more intense it will scream!  |
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Dr. Who
Junior Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| worth wrote: | i am not a yamaha fan boy before anyone concludes that. I just dont like the way folks here dumb down a product just because it is an arranger.
I hear a lot of talk about what could be done with VSTs combined with a cheap arranger but i wouldlove for some one to actually demonstrate this with say just 10 styles, each style having four variations plus fills and breaks and with 4 one touch settings per variation per style. |
Worth! I feel like I just got called out at the 8th grade dance, everyone formed a circle around me and now I gotta pull out all th stops and use my best moves. Look out for the eggroll!!! OK I'm dating myself...
I don't think anyone here is dumbing down arrangers. Many professional peeps here own them. I know Sharp has a PA3X (I gots one too, luv it actually!). I'm not sure what you are really asking here and whew! You are asking for quite a bit huh? Only 10 or 5 styles??? OK so maybe I assumed you wanted them created from scratch I'd love to help out but my time is very limited these days.
DISCLAIMER PLEASE READ THE FULL PARAGRAPH BEFORE YOU THINK I'M FULL OF #*^@#!  Ok so I can't show you the Receptor in action because she's not in the studio at the moment. I'm getting some of my "top secret" orchestral libraries installed on her by Muse Research. I'm not BSing here she's out of pocket for now. One drawback on the Receptor is that it is finiky when it comes to installation. First of all, it needs to be VST software that you can actually install on the Receptor (Receptor approved). Some need custom installs. The nice people at Muse will install your libraries for you if you give them an acitivation code. You call em up, tell them the VSTs your have, they say yep or nope if you can run them and they'll put them on your brnad new Receptor for you. Many many bands use these live. Ok... so I'm pretty busy these days so I don't have much time to devote to 10 or 5 styles and tracking them with differnt VSTs. But I don't want to leave you hanging. I'm still not sure what exactly you want to see. I assure you I'll post a vid showing VSTs working with the arranger!
I used to use the Receptor a lot in the studio with Pro Tools before I discovered Vienna Ensemble Pro. I'd use the Receptor while I was travelling for my real job but needed to work on an orchestral score. I had a laptop with ProTools, would open up the Receptor via ethernet and viola... I had a great orchestral pallette for mock ups. When I got back in the studio I could use the same file from my laptop, the same Receptor and track stems into ProTools HD from the Recptor. I also used the Receptor Pro live because it's terrifying to bring a laptop to a gig. So as far as the Receptor goes... you will have to take a leap of faith and trust me when I say... It just works. It really does. I owe you a video of it in action when it gets back!
OK enough rambling, what I want to show you in my vid is simply using an arranger to drive VSTs. The arranger will not be emitting any sound. It will be only VSTs that you will hear. I'm not going to record switching between styles etc. my time is limited, but I'll show a switch from variation 1 to variation2, its really basic stuff. Please note as with anything else there are shortcomings and you need to find some work arounds. I'll touch on those in the vid. I'm really pressed for time so forgive me. But... I don't want to be "that guy" that makes a big claim, you call me out and I dissapear with nothing to show for a few weeks. K... lemme see how long it takes the vid to upload to Youtube. In the meantime.... here's a Receptor vid (not mine). Just showing how it plays instruments from Native Instruments KOMPLETE. If you know that software, it's got a bit of everything. With Kontakt alone you have incredible realism and power at your fingertips. This of course, can be controlled by your arranger!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2crqxRe6J4
It really works!!! |
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Dr. Who
Junior Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| worth wrote: | | By the way i own the Korg PA1X arranegr and would love to update the sounds |
Well have I got a treat for you... I've got a beat up PA1x too. If yours is the Pa1x Pro sampling is your best friend for updating sounds. But.. you can always use VSTs!!! Ok so as I state in my video for orchestral scoring I don't really use the Receptor anymore. I used to... a bunch. But now with Vienna Ensmble Pro I can use 3 slaves with an ethernet router for a wicked powerful orchestral system! I guess everyone now has seen my top secret orchestral libraries in my vid. Symphobia 1 and 2 are most composer's secret weapons these days. You hear tons of their multis on TV shows. I'm currently getting them installed on my Receptor Pro. I am using my Kontakt computer in the vid. But what I show here with my laptop can easily be done with a Receptor running Kontakt. All I did in this video was used my computer to run one instance of Kontakt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PbHH8kBx68
I loaded up a bunch of different instruments in Kontakt and assigned them midi channels 9-16. I set the USB cable in my computer and the midi out of my PA1X the the midi in of the usb cable. In the arranger you have settings for midi output channels. These channels are assigned per each part that make up your style (i.e. bass, percussion, Acc 1-5). I take it from some of your previous posts you know your way around creating styles in the arranger so that helps out big time that you know the structure! It's a simple set up.
I didnt' show drums but just assign them to midi channel 10 and boom there you are. The tricky part is making sure that the drum maps are the same on your VST as in the arranger. This may take some tweaking. One work around is create a custom patch that generates inaudible sound. Assign that patch to all parts on your style except for the drums. Use the VST sounds instead. Use the drums you like from the arranger in your mixer live and use the sounds from your VST live. The arranger will be outputting sound but since the main patches are inaudible you will only hear the drums coming for the arranger. Hope that makes sense.
Another issue is the STS. You wanted to see that done with all four STS. Well you're kinda stuck... the way VSTs work is you are assigning sounds to midi channels, since the STS settings don't incorpate midi channels they do nothing for you with VSTs. So if you need to change a sound on the fly with the STS button, you can't control the VST with the STS buttom (or at least I haven't figured out a way to do that). But there are workarounds... I wanted to play 3 independent sounds as the lead with my right hand in the video. I actually do that without using the STS buttons. I have several Kontakt instruments on midi channel one, but I have them mapped out to different octaves. The highest octaves are sordino strings (violins and violas), the next octave down has a mix of woodwinds and a dynamic string ensemble. The next ocatave down is a legato solo flute with a light brass section, woodwind section and more strings. That's one way to get several different sounds with your lead hand. You might be able to get creative and use two keyboards, midi thru and assign one synth to transmit on midi channel 2 and the other on midi channel one. Dunno if I'm making sense. I should test this out some time...
That same rules stated for the STS apply for the styles themselves. In the arranger I can assign different sounds for variation 1 and 2. You can't do that with VSTs since there is no program change midi data being transmitted (or at least I don't think there is). When I set up styles with VSTs and want different sounds between variations 1 and 2, I'll set up three sounds on Acc1, 2 and 3. In the next variation I'll set up different sounds on Acc 4 and 5 plus I'll reuse the sound of Acc 3 (usually strings). Naturally I'll layer sounds as much as possible as well to give a fuller sound.
This same concept can be used to bring life to your arranger and drive sound modules. You said you grew tired of the PAx sounds... well then buy a 16 part multitimbral sound modle and viola! You now have brand new sounds for your arranger. Just follow the same steps. In the module, set up a combi. In the combi assign certain sounds to certain midi channels and boom you're there. The only thing you may have to worry about is polyphony (depending on your module). You can always layer VST or sound module sounds with the arranger sounds live for a fuller sound. For live use, switching from one style to the next, you just switch to the corresponding combi on your sound module. You can trigger several synths, just chain them via midi and assign one sound to midi chanel 12 the other synth has maybe two sounds firing off on midi channel 13. The sound pallette is really up to you. Hope that makes sense. With VST's you do the same thing. You save the Kontak instrument as a multi with several midi channels. You bring each multi up for each new style you are going to play. You can create the multi in Kontakt or in the Receptor you can save a preset that has 16 midi channels. The last video is of the oooold Receptor and isn't even in English but you can see how you create a multitimbral Receptor patch. Hope all this helps, just wanted to show you that you can indeed unleash your VSTs with your arranger. Have fun! Those arranger are anything but toys even if they may look like them 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_fh-p4yZc&feature=related |
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worth
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1096
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Hi Dr Who . I am at work at the moment so cant view your clips. but i will when i get home this evening. I got to tell you i am getting quite excited at the prospect of what i am hoping to see and hear .
Thanks a bunch for what you have done so far.  |
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Dr. Who
Junior Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| You may be underwhelmed with what you hear, ha! But the building blocks are there to refine and enhance your arranger sounds for sure. Hmmm... Thinking these Tolstoy posts of mine should probably be moved to the general arranger forum so others can unleash the power of their arrangers. Have fun with this, let ur creativity b ur guide! |
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worth
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1096
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Dr Who i want to thank you for the video clip you put up. It was interesting to see what was possible using VST's and an arranger. I really do appreciate the time you have taken to help me and it says a lot about you as a person.
i use the song book very heavily on my PA1X where i save all the set ups of my custom made songs styles and sts set ups right hand layers , keysplits etc . I play for a number of choirs in the Birmingham area UK and i have a library over 100 songs, all created or remixed by me that i might perform during the course of a year. The song book means that at the touch of a button i can call a set up with all my styles, effects, sounds and samples instantly.
Is it possible to achieve the same instant recall using VST's and if so how ?
I can see that just to get the drum mapping ghost notes, bass slides and mutes that i have programmed myself substituted by a vST equivalent instrument would take quite some time per style or variation of the same style if i substituted another drum kit or bass sound I am wondering whether you know of a way to overcome these challenges ?
These are the sorts of limitations that i have always been stumped with and have prevented me from using VSTs live with my arranger.
If you change style and want to use different sounds on the 1 to 16 midi chanells available (where as i understand it ) only 8 are actually assigned to arranger channels what can i do to get a transition from one style where i wish to use 8 different instruments from a VST to a completely different set one in another style instantly ?
These are genuine questions Dr who and i have huge respect for the way you have taken time out to answer my questions so far. I dont know how to transfer this elemnet of this thread to the arranger section but what you have done so far would be a real benefit to other arranger players here in the forum.
Thanks again for your responses . |
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Shakil
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 1169
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Conway wrote: | | Shakil wrote: | | The difference is that on Tyros you need only on osc for 128 velocity layers.... on OASYS... you need on full combi.. |
I don't know that I would ever use this, but you should be able to put two (up to four, actually) 64 step Wave Sequences (with RUN set to "off" and Position and/or Steps controlled by Velocity/AMS) on a single oscillator. I've certainly done it with 64 steps and velocity.
Another really cool application is to use After Touch (instead of velocity) to step through different samples. When I get around to it, I'm going to sample myself and make a program where the keyboard moans when I touch it. The harder I press on it, the more intense it will scream! |
Brilliant!!
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Roland Fantom-G6 ARX1, Korg M3-m exb-Radias, Korg Z1-18v, Roland MC-808, Roland MC-909, Korg microKontrol. |
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djcactus
Senior Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2011
Posts: 375
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | When Yamaha launched the Tyros 4 in America, guess where they toured ?
Yep... old folks retirement homes and that's an fact. There's something kind of sick and greedy in that. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Image linked from here
Regards
Sharp. |
My favorite part of the tyros 4 so far is that you can photoshop yourself into a 1980s scifi movie cockpit with it
sorry i couldnt help it
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nitecrawler
Platinum Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 975
Location: from a mile high to the the AZ desert
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | When Yamaha launched the Tyros 4 in America, guess where they toured ?
Yep... old folks retirement homes and that's an fact. There's something kind of sick and greedy in that. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Image linked from here
Regards
Sharp. |
Looks like my local Walmart on senior wednesdays.
_________________
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=807494
Montage M7, Pa5x76, Nautilus, PA3Xle, Oasys 76, Mini-Moog, EMU Audity 2000, Motion Sound KBR 3D amp, Presonus and Reaper DAW W/Tannoy Reveal 501A powered monitors |
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