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Just recieved my KronosX service manual from parts is parts
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D

Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:59 pm Post subject:

lonelagranger wrote:

You then say you have never, ever heard any talk of trying to provide business to service centers as an aspect of design. Maybe you were not present when said talks took place.

You guys don't have to believe what I say. You can continue to argue these ridiculous conspiracy theories. That's your choice. But, if you don't believe me, there's also no point in my continuing the discussion. Bye for now.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com

lonelagranger
Senior Member

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 291

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:08 pm Post subject:

Shame on us I guess. Oh well, life goes on.

Comrad_Durandal
Full Member

Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 166
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:31 pm Post subject:

lonelagranger wrote:

Shame on us I guess. Oh well, life goes on.

For helping brow-beating the Korg R&D guy, yeah. I think he gets people don't exactly like some design decisions, I get it - I don't like some of them either, but I am not about to act like Dan had anything to do with them, or that he'd be party to the information about who did have anything to do with them. He explained it quite a few times, in quite a few threads, and it just keeps coming back to bite the poor guy in the backside.

I can see his side - yeah, you can take your Kronos apart - don't be surprised if you have to pay to get it put back together again if you can't get it back together properly yourself. It uses PC parts, but wasn't designed with the end-user taking the critter apart in mind. Some of the shops charge a really really high price for the services of upgrades, if they offer them at all - but that's on the service shop; not Korg directly. If Korg DOES make money off upgrades, it would be on the factory ordered parts.

I can't see the itchy trigger finger on WANTING to take this thing apart. I purchased my Kronos as a musical instrument, not as a PC. I could have done the PC route for a LOT less, and if I wanted to turn it inside out - I could, and no one would say anything about it.

No, I am not defending the Kronos as the 'perfect workstation' as it simply isn't. Its got a lot going for it - but its got flaws too (just look through the numerous threads for those, I won't iterate them here). Korg has made its position on those short-comings clear; their part of the Korg buying experience and that we, as customers, need to accept them or move on. Being argumentative toward someone who comes here to help as much as his job allows - a task he's NOT paid for, by the way - doesn't accomplish much except narrow the field of experts the community has to look to for answers when we get ourselves stuck - or we do something dumb and we desperately seek to undo it.

lonelagranger
Senior Member

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 291

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:56 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Korg has made its position on those short-comings clear; their part of the Korg buying experience and that we, as customers, need to accept them or move on.

If people accepted this concept then we all would still be driving Model T's. It is the customer that drives innovation. Korg is not God, and apparently they have made a lot of people unhappy with their business decisions. So comes the complaints. As they should. If you sit down and be quiet nothing will change. I do not need Korg to tell me what I need to accept. I like Korg. I received a very good keyboard. But people here who have received less than quality instruments have been put through hell in some instances. They have every right to complain. I don't believe there is a limitation of time one can complain. You cannot sweep these customer disasters under the rug and say "Oh, you guys are a bunch of complainers". Not after they have taken thousand of dollars from people. I understand they would like this all to go away. It all comes back to Korg. They handled the problems wrong right from the beginning. That is why it has turned into this mess. If they want someone to blame I suggest they look in a mirror.

GregC
Platinum Member

Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:16 pm Post subject:

lonelagranger wrote:

Quote:

Korg has made its position on those short-comings clear; their part of the Korg buying experience and that we, as customers, need to accept them or move on.

Ranting on and on for 2 years on a message board seems to provide a visceral experience for some, sort of a sport.

In the business world, such as from a dealer perspective, such conspiratorial rantings are quickly dismissed. The dealers have access to 100's of transactions, sometimes 1000's of transactions. That is real life and quantifiable.

And based on that actual data, these message board ' theories ' simply do not measure up in a significant manner.
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LivePsy
Senior Member

Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 355

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:17 pm Post subject:

[quote="lonelagranger"]

Quote:

I accept it for what it is, a very good instrument.

Its a unique instrument and that is why so many are happy to have one even with the flaws. My fan is far too loud, but I persist and accept it as a fact of life. Its not faulty, it just makes the kind of noise a fan in that position makes. Old Korg would never have approved a design which produced that noise. Especially if an complished pianist sits down to hear wonderful tones. Different technologies but also different standards from Korg. Sure the deaf rockers at live performance wont hear it or after it is recorded.

I have risked warranty to upgrade my Kronos, something I am sure I will be punished for if I ever need to take it in for service. But I have come to expect arrogant, expensive and unhelpful treatment from my country's distributor.

The Kronos is a risk, and either expensive repairs or junking it entirely is going to happen sooner or later. Its a thought I hadn't had in the back of my mind with earlier keyboards. The Kronos is great and at the same time a disposable computer soon to be obsolete.

B

lonelagranger
Senior Member

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 291

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:18 pm Post subject:

Quote:

For helping brow-beating the Korg R&D guy, yeah

I don't think anyone was browbeating the R&D guy I made no rude comments and thanked Dan for his participation in this forum. I have been a Purchasing Manager and it is a very high stressed job. You have to do and say unkind things in the course of business to get the job done. You also get beat up sometimes. Its all part of the job. The posts I saw regarding Dan also thanked him for his participation here. I don't think anyone wished him any ill will. I think he just didn't like the comments and was caught between a rock and a hard place. He is the poor guy that has choosen to listen to the horror stories that have happen to some of the members on this forum. He is pulled between some very ligitmate complaints by member here and his job with Korg. Korg, by the way pays his bills. So guess who wins the tug-of-war. You can't blame him. I would do the same thing. He has answered at length posts, point by point in an attempt to explain the situation with Korg. I give him great credit for what he does. In life you learn by your mistakes not your successes. This comment is addressed at Korg not Dan. Dan, if you feel that I brow beat you I apologize. If you would like I will provide you with my address and you can come punch me in the face. I am old enough that no one would notice any difference.

Ojustaboo
Platinum Member

Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 1154
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:55 am Post subject:

danatkorg wrote:

Ojustaboo wrote:

Those figures simply show that most people are not going to pay what ends up an extortionate amount to send in their Kronos for a very very very simple RAM upgrade and a simple (for anyone that's upgraded one in their PC OK) SSD upgrade.

First, I don't think you've achieved your stated goal of proof about "most people." (It's a common confusion to think that the online community represents all users.)
Second, I object to the repeated usage of "extortionate."
I happen to know that some concern was applied to keep upgrade costs low for our users.
Third, please note that in most cases people aren't paying "Korg" anything. These upgrades are done at authorized service centers, which - at least here in the USA - are independent businesses. We aren't trying to drum up business for Korg here.

First: obviously there will be many users that wouldn't have the first clue about opening any electronic item, however on this forum and the various other keyboard forums there's still a fair amount that do.

Second: You can object to me saying that as much as you want, I still stand by the fact that a UK user having to pay £453 to get bog standard effectively plug and play (ok with a format too) off the shelf parts that I can get delivered to my house (the retail outlet has made some profit on me buying it) for under £50 is extortionate. I think Korgs £219 price is too steep. Under £50 for the parts, say £50 for an hours labour, that's £80 - £100, or if you want to charge £75 an hour for labour, that still is £105 - £125 depending on the price you pay for parts.

If I opened my Kronos tomorrow, I might take an hour as it would be my first time, but once something's been done once, the next time it takes half the time, an hours labour is being generous.

Now, if Korg charged £219 and in that price they arranged the courier (im sure they have a very very good deal with their courier company that would mean it would cost them very little) so that the end user is safe in the knowledge that the courier korg trusts is picking up his/her Kronos and is fully insured then that's a much better deal.

Third: Fair enough, I can only speak from here in the UK

danatkorg wrote:

Ojustaboo wrote:

In that thread some people do clone their drives, they appear to do this so that they don't have to go through restoring the DVD's (for example, not having a compatible USB DVD drive)

No one from Korg responded to that thread at all so many people have upgraded their original SSD's without knowing anything about hidden calibration.

Now, hold on just a minute. You seem to be saying that it was our responsibility to comment in that thread. In fact, as you have noted, I have written repeatedly that the KRONOS is not user-serviceable. That is our comment on the topic. The manual is extremely clear on this point:

* * *
Support for additional RAM
Installation of an additional 1GB of RAM is now supported, and can be performed at any authorized Korg service center. This approximately doubles the maximum available sample RAM, up to about 2 GB. Of course, when loading EXs using Virtual Memory, the total size of the loaded sample data can be much greater.
The KRONOS uses widely available, off‐the‐shelf DIMMs. Installation by an authorized Korg service center is required; user installation is not supported and may void your warranty. For more information on how to purchase and arrange for installation of RAM, please contact your country’s Korg Distributor:
http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/index.html

* * *
Second Internal SSD support
The KRONOS now supports installation of a second internal SSD, for more storage of samples, audio tracks, and program data. Installation must be done by an authorized service center; user installation is not supported and may void your warranty. Contact your Korg Distributor for details on purchase and installation.

* * *

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that you personally should have commented

Common sense says that people at Korg will read the korg forum. Not just you and other staff members that choose to comment in their free time etc, but other managers etc too. If they don't then I can't really say anything polite about a company that pays no notice to what its customers are saying about its products.

Peope at korg including yourself (and again I'm not saying you should have commented), were aware people were upgrading their machines themselves, as I said earlier, even Sharp produced a video on how to do it.

I am saying that someone at Korg should have had an alarm bell going off thinking to him or herself "hang on, these guys are replacing the SSD themselves, they are going to loose the calibration data by doing this" and that person should have bought it to someone's attention at Korg who has the authority to let say you know, and instruct you (or someone else) to warn all those users what the result would be.

danatkorg wrote:

And yet you say:

Ojustaboo wrote:

Again, I want to stress I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm saying Korg should have made it BOLDLY and in CAPITALS in numerous manuals and probably also something stuck on the Kronos that the user has to remove when unpacking, warning them that the SSD contains calibration data in a hidden partition.

We don't specifically warn you not to disconnect the power supply internally, either - though that would certainly cause the system not to function. That's because you're not supposed to be there in the first place. The same thing applies here.

Sorry, I don't buy that point of view, its a silly comparison in my opinion.

One is replacing off the shelf parts that many Kronos users would have experiance of inserting into their laptops or PC towers etc, into an off the shelf PC motherboard, the power supply is nothing like that at all.

danatkorg wrote:

Ojustaboo wrote:

There is nothing else in the service manual about any form of calibration so either it is worded wrong in the manual, or there is no calibration done.

I can't comment at all on some version of a service manual that might have been sold to you by a third party without authorization to do so. I have no idea what doc you're looking at. However, I'm on the development team, and I know whereof I speak. You can believe me or not, your choice.

Parts is parts according to korg.com is an authorised korg parts distributor. They may be a third party, but you recommend them on your own web site.

To be honest, its a comment like that which is likely to wind customers up and fuel conspirosy theories. Your sort of implying I haven't been sold the real manual, if I had, I would know how to calibrate the machine. That sort of comment fuels speculation as to whether there really is calibration instructions or whether Korg has instructed you to say so to try and put people off doing their own upgrades.

If you had simply kept it to something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I can't comment on any information contained in service manuals to members of the public" then fine.

But wording it the way you did, I find a bit insulting. Further, if one of your authorised parts centres sold me what they advertised as the Kronos X service manual when in fact it isn't, then I want a refund from them.

They sold me the manual, the receipt with the part number is earlier in this thread.

The calibration info was supposed to be in the original Kronos version, it wasn't, only the test instructions were. Its exactly the same in the kronosX version.

Its a 74 page service manual issued by Korg on Oct 2012 and is version 2.0

Pages 2- 8 have hardware diagrams (page 8 has parts list and photo of AC inlet)
Pages 9 - 34 have various circuit diagrams.

Page 35 is titled "Kronos and Kronos X Test Mode"

And tells how to get into test mode

Then over the next few pages it tells us how to o

Appearance check
LCD flicker check
Sound check
LCD colour check
System version check
Internal inspection check
Memory size check
Number of keys check
Date and time
Fan control
All Led check
Panes SW and LED check
Various LCD checks such as gradient, brightness
Touch panel calibration (the only calibration I can see in the manual)
Buzzer check

Then it comes to various A/D converter checks

Maybe these are calibrating it, for examplewhen it says

Quote:

15-3 JOYSTICH Y axis
Confirm “OK” is displayed right side of “MAX” when JOYSTIC is moved up.
Move JOYSTIC downward. Confirm “OK” is displayed right side of “CENTER” while it move about center.
Keep moving it downward. Confirm “OK” is displayed right side of “MIN” when it is moved to the downward full.
Move JOYSTIC downward full. Releases it so that JOYSTICK returns it to the center by the power of the spring.

Don't touch JOYSTIC and push [ENTER] and advance it to the following inspection

15-4 VECTOR JOYSTIC
Confirm “OK” is displayed side of “CENTER” when VECTOR JOYSTIC is moved to the CENTER.
Confirm “OK” is displayed right side of “RIHGT” when it is moved to the right full.
Confirm “OK” is displayed right side of “LEFT” when it is moved to the left full. Confirm “OK” is displayed right side of “MAX” when it is moved to the up full. Confirm “OK” is displayed right side of “MIN” when it is moved to the down full.
Confirm that movement is smooth moves smoothly while moving it up and down and right and left.
Don't touch VECTOR JOYSTIC and push [ENTER] and advance it to the following inspection.

The A/D test fails if the wrong knob/button is presed, hence the reason it says for example at the end of 15-3 above, "Don't touch the joystick and press enter" is because as soon as enter is pressed it moves on to the vector joystick, so if you still had hold of the joystick and let go, the test thinks the wrong button has been pressed.

And if you touched the vector joystick at the end of 15-4 when you press enter, it moves onto the rotary volume check so again would fail if you moved the vector joystick.

That is why at the end of each section it tells you to leave the button/knob or whatever alone before pressing enter, simply to stop the next test failing. No where in the manual does it imply this is actually calibrating anything.

Anyway I digress

The list of the rest of these tests are
Ribbon controller
Joystick X
Joystick Y
Vector Joystick
Rotary volume and slide volume check
Rotary encoder check
Tempo volume check
Pedal

Then we come onto keyboard velocity check
And here you can also select which version of the keybed you have
Aftertouch check
Auto power off setting (this is something that can be turned on if your Kronos is a new enough model to support it, but this isn't going to affect someone's Kronos use if it wasn't entered)

And that takes us up to page 49 which has a list of error codes and their meanings.

There is no other tests, input codes etc in the manual except for page 53

Pages 50 - 52 are parts lists

Page 53 is the PSoC loading which is done automatically if the circuit boards are replaced upon power up, but instructions are here to show you how to force the panel scan if needed.

Pages 54 -74 contain various photos of how the various hardware is assembled.

Zero information on calibrating the machine.

Again, I bought this manual to protect my investment as you told us about the calibration data. If your authorised dealer sold me what they claimed is the service manual, but its missing information needed to do the servicing, then I should be entitled to a refund as I haven't received what was advertised.

danatkorg wrote:

Ojustaboo wrote:

it does kind of look like they've done this deliberately and there's only three reasons that makes sense to me and they are,

1) so that if at any time in the Kronos life time the SSD dies, the customer HAS to send it to Korg for replacement, hence work for the service department
2) as a way of trying to get used Kronos off the market as people wont be able to repair them themselves and wouldn't be able to warrant the cost of sending them to Korg
3) Someone at Korg is incompetent and hasn't thought things through.

That's complete nonsense, on the level of conspiracy theories about faked moon landings.
I have written, again and again, that Korg does not in general make money off of service - since it's often done by independent shops! - and that I have never, ever heard any talk of trying to provide business to service centers as an aspect of design.

Such nonsensical trash is deeply insulting and unwarranted, regardless of the niceties that you've offered to me personally. If you persist in this approach, further discussion will not be possible.

- Dan

I'm sorry you took that last comment so personally, I certainly didn't mean to offend you and I apologise.

However, I don't think its as nonsensical as you say.

I agree option 1 is very unlikely and as you've explained, usually in the US it isn't even Korg that does the upgrades.

I don't for one minute think option 2 is correct either although some companies do definitely design their products not to last.

It was really option 3 I meant, I put the other two in there as sort of joke scenarios meaning only option 3 was left.

And I do stand by that statement. Someone at Korg in my opinion (and I'm sure I'm nowhere near alone on this) seriously messed up when they presumed users wouldn't update their RAM and SSD themselves.

The two point I'm having trouble making is that

1) RAM and SSD/Harddrives are not like most other electrical components, many people install their own ones now and someone at Korg should have realised the very huge likelihood that a fair few people would.

2) Virtually every single product on the planet says "no user serviceable parts inside", companies most often say so in order to protect themselves from for example being sued.

Its become almost as meaningless as the list of side effects listed on all the medication I take.

I take medication for sickness that has a possible side effect of Nausia. I take migraine tablets that have possible side effects of causing headaches.

And the amount of my tablets that list death as a possible side effect is quite laughable.

But I still choose to take my tablets as I know companies list them to cover themselves.

Its the same with any electrical item. Sure many users shouldn't try to fix something but many many very competent people exist. I was soldering kits when I was about 10, friends would bring me things like their broken cassette recorders to fix while at school and it was very rare I couldn't fix them and I'm sure there's many Kronos owners far more skilled than I am.

My oven says no user serviceable parts.

One of the hot plates on my oven was stuck on full. 4 screws, 1 nut, pull off two spade connector wires, under £5 for the part, under 15 mins to do, it really was as quick as I've described it. I doubt I could get someone to my house for less than £100 to even glance at it.

But cost saving aside, if I'm doing something for myself, I do it properly, while I'm at it, I'll see if other bits needs cleaning or tightening etc.

Far far too many times in my life I have paid for a professional to do something (or called round a relative or friends house as they have a problem with something or want to show me the so called professionals workmanship) only to see the end result and know without a shadow of a doubt, I would have done a better and neater job (and in some cases the professional persons work has been simply dangerous)

In the past I've used so called professionals for many things and the end result was bad soldering, pipes that suddenly leak, electric cables not properly tightened

Or when my original Kronos came back from repair from Korg UK, , a screw in the bottom of my Kronos box rather than in the Kronos, the cardboard inserts missing and the fault still there.

I learnt many years ago that if you want something done to a high standard and you have the time, health and ability, do it yourself.

My point is, saying no user serviceable parts to the many competent people that are good with their hands, carefull, safety conscious etc ends up a pretty meaningless thing for such people.

Sure I understand you have to say it and I understand there's always a few idiots around that will open something up when they haven't got a clue what they are doing, but to expect competent people not to upgrade their own RAM etc, is in my opinion a miscalculation by Korg.

Sent from my ipad at 3am, apologies for any spelling mistakes

Best

Joe

Ojustaboo
Platinum Member

Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 1154
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:15 am Post subject:

GregC wrote:

lonelagranger wrote:

Quote:

Korg has made its position on those short-comings clear; their part of the Korg buying experience and that we, as customers, need to accept them or move on.

If your referring to me, I bought my first Kronos 7 months ago. And by December 3 months later I was on my third one.

I did bring up concerns I had with quality on the Kronos forum in the previous year as i wanted to buy but wasn't sure about the quality. But usually I was either told I had no right to comment as I didn't own one or people such as yourself put down those complaining. A few forum members with problems left due to the way they were treated.

I eventually made the mistake of believing over a year since its release that it was safe to buy, what with people such as you making the complainers out to be this small insignificant minority.

Turns out I was very very very wrong.

I think Korg has become an appalling company and as I've often said, my first synth over 30 years ago was a korg micro preset.

They have lost me and many any others due to the way things have turned out with the Kronos, had I not experienced what I had, then by now my order for the ms20 mini would have been placed. I don't want one now as I no longer have faith in the quality of their products and neither do the staff at a music store I was recently in.

Yes I know, round in circles we go, but I can't stress enough, I really really want to like korg again, I really want to have my faith in them restored, but they act as though they couldn't give a crap what their customers think of them.

And again I'm not talking about Dan, I'm talking about Korg Japan

GregC
Platinum Member

Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:28 am Post subject:

Ojustaboo wrote:

GregC wrote:

lonelagranger wrote:

Quote:

Korg has made its position on those short-comings clear; their part of the Korg buying experience and that we, as customers, need to accept them or move on.

or, what you are doing and your choices, is not working

time for you to move on
_________________
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Achieve your musical dreams Smile

https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994

LivePsy
Senior Member

Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 355

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:09 am Post subject:

Kronos has diverged from the general quality of Korg because it is a PC daw in a keyboard shell. It brings with it different support structure. There's nothing else to compare it with on the market. Roland might have done the same with support if they made something similar. Its not really useful to compare an M1 with a Kronos just because the PC motherboard in there changes everything. Personally, I think the PC motherboard was unwise, a Korg quality dedicated hardware board would ensure higher standards and make it more like a hardware synth than it is. Korg are otherwise coming up with great new products. The analog synths don't require big upgrades to software or common computer parts. Fun little boxes which don't do a lot but do one thing really well. Exact opposite of the Kronos. B

lonelagranger
Senior Member

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 291

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I didn't brow-beat anyone. I was respectful of Dan. My comments were clearly directed at Korg not their R&D guy. I never suggested Dan had anything to do with any of the problems faced by some people on this forum. Dan is not getting bit in the backside. Korg is the one with the problem. They sold people very expensive keyboards that had major flaws. Of course people will be upset. They have a right to be. Dan has been very helpful, but he is put in this position by the actions of the company he works for. It's like being the cruise director on the Titanic. Asking if you would like fries with that as the front of the ship sinks into the ocean.

GregC
Platinum Member

Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject:

lonelagranger wrote:

Quote:

anyone can see Carnival Cruise lines has problems. Yet cruises continue to sell out. And prices have not been reduced.

People are free to buy as they please, as they see fit. They are informed if they choose.

Message board ranting= pretty much not going to change anything.

Wash/rinse/repeat
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Achieve your musical dreams Smile

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lonelagranger
Senior Member

Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 291

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:25 pm Post subject:

Quote:

anyone can see Carnival Cruise lines has problems. Yet cruises continue to sell out. And prices have not been reduced.

Sorry to inform you prices have been reduced. My sister is thinking of taking a cruise for this very reason. I am giving here a gift box of plastic baggies, just in case.

GregC
Platinum Member

Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:33 pm Post subject:

lonelagranger wrote:

Quote:

anyone can see Carnival Cruise lines has problems. Yet cruises continue to sell out. And prices have not been reduced.

Sorry to inform you prices have been reduced. My sister is thinking of taking a cruise for this very reason. I am giving here a gift box of plastic baggies, just in case.

LOL

even better. good luck, sis
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