Korg Forums

[Derek Cook]

[Derek Cook]

[Tschury]

Before Kevin will probably react to my previous (provocative) post, I have to give him some credit. The SY99 can loop the whole Env, but also only the last segments, starting from either the second or third Env segment (of totally four). MOD-7 can only loop from the Env starting point. The SY99 also doesn't need any modulation source in order to loop its six OP Envs, but there is no option to tempo sync the Env loops.

So I can understand why Kevin is missing the same handy Env loop functions on the MOD-7. But he should have mentioned the existing (tempo syncable) Env loop possibilities and the complex Env trigger timing options of MOD-7, by using modulation sources, which there are fortunately plenty of...

[Kevin Nolan]

Tschury - you can't loop _subsets_ of the envelope - that's the critical bit.

On the SY77 and 99, you can loop subsets of the envelope - that's what give these instruments the capacity to create voices with motion, finely controlled. You can't do the same on MOD-7 - I have tried!


As I pointed out repeatedly, MOD-7 is indeed extremely complex - but - this is the critical point - Yamaha got the important points right, and Korg missed some that are quite important. Not to be too harsh on Korg they probably invested a minuscule amount of time and resources into MOD-7 and still did an amazing job compared to what Yamaha invested into FM synthesis, but that's the point - when you learn the SY AFM/RCM engine, you see extremely smart decisions as to how (and why) it is implemented the way it is. MOD-7 has staggering capabilities for sure, but I can assure you there is an extra level of 'awareness' that went into the Yamaha implementation that allows it to be programmed in ways MOD-7 cant - most especially with envelope looping. AMS LFO's are NOT the same thing, and there are types of voices programmable on the SY range not possible on MOD-7.


@Derek - I totally agree about the number of EX5 programmes available. In fact I've just completed a gargantuan 'optimization' of about 15 sets of EX5 sounds, where I spent months (on and off) to identify the top 250 EX5 programs (for me) across AWM, VL, AN and FDSP synth engines. Having all of those voices on board and instantly available elevates the EX5 to a staggering degree (I am doing similar 'optimizations' across all my synths and it is taking many years, but the results are quite extraordinary because in essence I'm making available to my workflow what I regard as the very best programs ever programmed for each instrument I own, and they become altogether hugely more purposeful, useful and sonically superior. The top EX5 sounds are as good as anything available today).

[Tschury]

[Kevin Nolan]

If in the same town - this would be a good "nerdy" chat over a pint off beer!


I accept the extraordinary capabilities of MOD-7 - but - where I'm coming from is from a particular, personal 'like' about the SY range that I just haven't been able to achieve on MOD-7 that's associated with RCM synthesis and Envelope looping. In particular, because in RCM synthesis you're using a sample to modulate a carrier wave, the balance of sample-modulator level is critical to shape the sound you want - and the envelopes allow for that to be varied over time. While I accept the MOD-7 envelopes are excellent, in this particular instance, they do not match the subtlety of the SY range. On the SY, you can set which parts of the envelope you want to loop, and how it will loop, and it offers a wide range of ways of introducing time variant harmonic content to a note -very important. And it's all velocity sensitive too. Most importantly, because the looping is on the internal segments to the envelope, the degree of subtly is impressive; and it just cant be emulated on MOD-7.

A classic example is perhaps my favourite sound of all in the FM range - the RCM SY77 program called Bah-Mallet. It's a convolution of a choral sound with an FM sound, and it's a stunning sound to me in terms of its dynamics, wide pitch range, velocity sensitivity and movement due to envelope looping. From that one program I have been able to stretch it beyond belief - i even have a program I call "Sky Crack" which uses this program but several octaves lower and with the sample input multiplier increased, and it's the closest I've ever head to real Thunder - it's gigantic.

I have tried, at length using all the techniques you propose, to emulate that sound - but it can't be done. I simply cannot get MOD-7 to create the same dynamism and movement in the program. The envelopes (and added motion capabilities you mention) are too corse and cannot allow for the capability of the SY Bah-Mallet - namely a striking, massive attack, and then subtle movement within the envelope. I can have one or the other - but not both!

I've tried similar efforts with other programs such as the awesome SY Spanish-Guitar sound called Remirez (which created exquisite dynamics but also the sound of fingers sliding on the strings) - but once again MOD-7 cannot provide for the subtly and dynamic range needed.

Of course MOD-7 offers exquisite and higher 'granularity' in editing - with most parameters being 7-bit on the MOD-7 and many only 3-bit on the SY range - so there are depths and breaths that MOD-7 can go to that the SY range can't - but - as I also indicated, MOD-7 takes an extraordinary amount of editing to get there - and once again, the SY range offers _just_ the right number and choice of parameters, smartly positioned in the algorithm chain, to allow for exquisite programming. This is surely one of the reasons there are so many programmes for it. By contrast, MOD-7, by its very complexity, seems to have become prohibitive to all but a very few (such as your good self) - it just has not been programmed - and that's the problem I flagged earlier.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on the subtler point we debating - I just feel that the SY range offer the optimum setup for RCM / FM synthesis, and despite great enthusiasms , and great liking for MOD-7, I have just not been able to make it 'sing' in an dynamic/ acoustic-like way as I can with the SY77/99, despite having educated myself (using the Parameter Guide !!) and many, many dozens of hours on particular programs. MOD-7 is, to me, a monster of a synth engine, but it needs refinement in its usage.

[Tschury]

[SanderXpander]

Speaking personally, I just find FM synthesis a lot more "abstract" than subtractive. For most subtractive sounds I know instantly how to go about making them (disregarding certain subtleties specific to a synth's sound character). FM is just opaque to me. I can't really imagine what it will sound like to multiply a wave with another one, let alone yet a third one. I've done some basic MOD-7 programming but I use it more additively than anything else.

Part of it is laziness too I suppose, a lot could be learned from analyzing the on-board patches or reading up on FM.

[Sharp]

When the DX-7 came out I believe it had only 32 Factory sounds, which meant learning how to program one was pretty much mandatory. The lack of choice simply created the motivation and determination to learn.

Fast forward to now and you can buy a Workstation jam packed with a thousands + sounds, so the motivation for people to learn how to program the depths of MOD-7 is simply not there at any level like it would have been required back in the DX-7 days.

Now you don't even need to know how to play an instrument to write music with all the Gadgets and Apps that are available. My god you don't even have to be able to sing any more due to Auto Tune...lol....

Regards
Sharp.

[Derek Cook]

[Derek Cook]

[Synthoid]

[Sharp]

lol... Much better.

[Kevin Nolan]

So true Sharp - we're surely in a different world.

Derek - I totally agree with you regarding FDSP synthesis (for those not familiar with it - it is a kind of synthesis engine in the EX5 where, at 16 note polyphony, you got 16 polyphonic effects, triggered by a MIDI note on message - so each note gets its own effects engine!). The FDSP Ring Modulator (i.e. 16 Ring Modulators triggered and controlled polyphonically by note no., velocity, aftertouch - affecting up to about 15 parameters) is staggering.

Applied with subtlety to, say an electric piano AWM sound, it transforms it, providing a metallic dimension to the program that responds to the touch. The CS80 ring modulator is astounding because of its 5 levers for realtime control; but I can assure, the EX5 FDSP Ring Modulator algorithm is its equal, if not superior. It can be made to sound gargantuan, or as subtle as needed by the finest electro-jazz pianist.

I also adore the FDSP "Water" algorithm that makes AWM programs ripple like water - and indeed the PWM algorithm means you can apply PWM to any sample based program - stunning when applied to chorus type sounds.

Coupled to the VL engine and exquisite duophonic AN1x Virtual Analogue engine, the EX5 (and in particular these days the EX5R) is among the best kept secrets in synthesis. I employ an EX5 and two EX5R's in my setup to cater for the range and depth of these astounding sounds.

In my opinion the EX5 was Yamaha's attempt at a kind of an OASYS - a workstation / sampler with multiple synth engines. As I'm sure you know Derek it is underpowered DSP wise and issues warning messages to the screen if you overstretch, and this was met with nothing short of venom by the new and emerging online community in 1998. I remember it well, and Yamaha were ripped limb for limb on line. I knew people in Yamaha Ireland at the time (closely tied to Yamaha Kemble in the UK) who indicated Yamaha's awareness of the venomous reaction - and as a result the EX5 was pulled prematurely; and reinvented as the original Motif.

So it is fairly certain that the EX5 had a hand in the downfall of Yamaha and synthesis - the reaction to it scared them in earnest; and that coupled to the success of the Motif seems to have sealed Yamaha's fate regarding synthesis.

Overall, a very strange state of affairs in the history of synthesis, given Yamaha's early pioneering work and given that they are the biggest music instrument maker on the planet.

[EvilDragon]

It is really sad that Yamaha abandoned its synth legacy. That said, I don't understand how THEY cannot understand where they went wrong. EX-5 was chock full with excellent ideas and laughable limitations. AN parts with only 2 voices of polyphony? Thanks, I'd rather have an AN1x (oh wait - I already do have it, what a sublime machine!). Restrictions in Multi mode are even worse... And we all have 90s CPUs to blame for that. FS1R is another sublime machine, hampered by the rack format and unintuitive UI. Thankfully at least ZeeEdit and some other free editors help in this regard. Oh, if you want to have user Fseqs, your user preset memory area halves to 64? Blasted hell!!!