Korg Forums

[TedS]

The Pa3X (non-Le model) is marketed as Korg's flagship arranger. However, I pose the question: are its newer models (such as the PA900 and even the Havian style piano) more advanced?
The newer models have 128 poly vs 120 on the PA3X. Does this signal a hardware change, new processor, etc.?

Also it's obvious that Korg has overhauled some aspects of its operating system. For example the chord recognition mode has moved to Global rather than being in Style Preferences where it resided for years. I gave Korg a hard time on this forum when they introduced the Pa900 and Pa600, because they dropped some important chord recognition modes. Since then they have added back the 'Fingered 3' mode, which is a step in the right direction. The Havian 30 introduces a brand-new mode for Korg. Basically it's the Yamaha system with added recognition for more than just four basic chord types. This is what Yamaha calls 'Multifinger' and will make transition easier for a lot of Yamaha players who use that system. In my eyes these changes are evidence of a vibrant development program.

Finally I tried a Pa900 in a local store the other week and I noticed that the fills and transition between variations was a lot smoother and more responsive than I remember it being on the Pa3X. The abrupt fills are one of the factors that turned me away from Korg in the first place. Bottom line: I know all of these newer models lack EC5 support, which is a bummer. But if I wanted Korg's most advanced arranger, would I be better off with a Pa900 / Le / Havian vs. the Pa3X? For those who have played the Pa900, Le, and 3X61 how would you compare the sounds, styles, and especially the smoothness of the fill-ins? Thanks!

[jimsweb]

i don't think if havian or even the pa900 could be called as flagship models. Sounds like an insult to PA3x. PA3x has been korg's flagship arranger for years and it would be the same till PA4x is introduced.

I have played both of these keys and found that pa900 is missing many features of PA3x. less ram, missing styles, missing fill buttons etc etc. Above all, pa900's built quality is awe-full compared to PA3x. Also i disagree to your comment saying pa900's styles are a lot smoother.
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[karmathanever]

[Dikikeys]

[siebenhirter]

[Dikikeys]

The fills are smoother on the PA900 because Korg are writing the styles to account for the new auto fill behavior.

Once fills become standardized as to direction, it's MUCH easier to program them so that they don't abruptly change.

TBH, you take those smoother fill styles, stick them in a PA3x, they will be smooth there too. It's got nothing to do with sieben's idée fixe... It's about how the styles are PROGRAMMED.

All those older fill modes were good for in normal style use (sieben seems to use them for a lot of songstyle stuff) was mitigating the damage that the old two fill/four Variation system caused. The answer to smoother transitions isn't complicated fill direction controls... it is simply having MORE fills!

The more fills, the more they can be written to transition smoothly. If you think about it, one fill for each and every possible four variation move (including fill-to-same) is 16 different fills. So, even four isn't perfect (nothing is!), but it's a HELL of a lot better than two. Yamaha and Roland have moved to six fills, and that is even better.

[TedS]

Well, what of the additional polyphony? I don't believe that kind of improvement can be achieved through software, so I wonder whether the Pa900/Pa3XLe have a newer, stronger processor.

This wouldn't be the first time Korg undermined its TOTL model by introducing newer technology in a MOTL arranger... Upon its debut, the PA800 was equal or superior to the PA1X in everything but weight! Along with a new synth engine and almost double the polyphony, it was the first to have the NTT 'Fixed' parameter, which is important to control style behavior.

It's hard to describe, but the PA3X handled like every old Korg. Meanwhile the PA900 just seemed slicker and smoother which makes me believe some positive changes have taken place under the hood.

I played the Pa3X a while ago. What I would really like is the opportunity to play both back to back. Thanks for sharing your observations!

[Dikikeys]

120 vs 128 voices? Hardly enough to say 'better'... 180 might be significant, but 8 more hardly qualifies as anything earth shattering.

I honestly think that what is happening is that slowly, Korg are converting older styles to the new auto-fill system. The PA3x had quite a lot of legacy styles as well as some new ones, and some of those still had issues not transitioning smoothly. But I am sure Korg have been hard at work reworking them to work better.

There used to be all kinds of sound jumps, volume jumps, some pretty ugly transitions with the PA2x. It was, IMHO, the Achilles heel of the older Korg's... they had great features, in depth sound editing, samplers, all kinds of goodies. But compared to Roland's and Yamaha's, the fills were abysmal. That's getting better. Not only just because Korg increased them from 2 to 4, but also because the new auto-fill behavior mandates the fills to work in a specific order, the style programmers have a much better understanding of what they will be used for, and can program them appropriately.

I used to get the impression that older Korg styles had the fills programmed for maybe two actual transitions. Out of sixteen possibilities! That leaves an awful lot of possible variation changes that were going to suck But the main issue was, the style writers wrote a fill that made ONE transition well, and took no notice of how bad it was for everything else! No amount of fill control is going to help a fill that simply does not WORK for most transitions.

I think Korg's new style writers are MUCH better at designing fills that are less specific, and can work for two or three possible destinations. Multiply that by four, and you are beginning to see why things have got much better. I do not believe there's any technological reason you think some PA900 styles have better fills. It's simply that they were written better!

[jimsweb]

Unfortunately, this auto-fill mechanism has eaten up some fill buttons! that's the weird change happened so far to newer siblings like pa900.
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[karmathanever]

Ted

Don't be confused here - the "newer" models are not updates to the PA3X flagship, however there are a few little things which are different and "new" but fundamentally these models are "lite" versions of the flagship and hence there will be limited features. It's hard to know if there are actual underlying hardware changes.

Your comment regarding "smooth" fill transition is interesting. Can't say I find PA3X an issue in this regard but have not experimented on the PA900 to any great extent.

It would be nice for an OS update on PA3X to include the little "new" bits together with the new styles on PA900/600 but I doubt that will happen now (it didn't happen for the PA588, PA2XPro and PA800 - e.g. they all had some unique styles).

Cheers

Pete
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[Giner]

And the beat goes on . . . And on . . . And on . . .
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[karmathanever]

Siebenhirter/Dikikeys
Take this off-line guys and don't insult 10yr olds by comparing them to yourselves.
We are ALL sick of this garbage.
It is unfair to "Teds" who was originally asking about the current newer MOTL PA arrangers. We know from many many other topics that you have little understanding about this current range of PAs

Ted
if you would like this topic to be unlocked and continued, send me a PM - I will delete the wasted irrelevant messages and re-open it. Otherwise you could open another topic if you wish - let me know please.

Cheers

Pete
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PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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[karmathanever]

Topic unlocked out of respect to TedS (originator).

Tantrum and related posts removed

Full tantrum-watch activated
(Let's not go there again (please!!)
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[Dikikeys]

Perhaps the OT 'responses' to the tantrum posts should be deleted too, and the thread would once again be focused?

My apologies to all for how this went downhill...

[karmathanever]

Thanks Diki

Ted is fine with the way things are so we'll leave it there for now

(Sent you a PM response)

Thanks

Pete
_________________
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
------------------------------------------------------------------
## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
------------------------------------------------------------------