Korg Forums

[jimknopf]

Enigmahack, it was just fun to see a sympathetic guy like you exploring things, after already enjoying your programming skills and offers!

I also thinks it never hurts to detect weak spots whereever they may be.

Concerning the overall evaluation of German grand and Berlin Grand, I just disagree DESPITE some possible sample flaws within the Berlin (which were hard to judge in the video, by the way, due to the external key noise of the Kronos 2 keys reecorded along with the internal sound).

I have been using both pianos in different contexts, and I NEVER got the German Grand - which I like a lot for solo play - working in a way which satisfies me in any(!) loud band context.

It just doesn't work for me, even if I use some EQing and other tweaking: it will never ever be my preferred band piano, because it just tends to vanish and be more or less inaudible at normal loudness levels in band context. It leaves you only two choices: to play much louder than at normal fitting band level (which doesn't really sound good and hurts the ears) - or force the band to shrink back to low background level, to an unnaturally high degree.

The Berlin Grand does a MUCH better job here IMHO. And, sorry to say it, meanwhile I don't even consider the German grand for any such purposes any more. My personal preference is to use it exclusively for solo piano and ballads, and frankly for nothing else.

As you said, to each his/her own! But to me the general sonic character of a piano for a chosen purpose and context is just more important, than some slight inaccuracies of certain notes of velocity levels may be, and the possible differences of stretched tuning are no issue at all. Still I think that it's a great idea to check any possible issue like you did - but rather to help Korg update the Berlin (possibly), than to exchange it by the German: that will never happen for band context here! I just always prefer the Berlin for that (having a weakness for the rich and at the same time very present sound of Bechstein pianos anyway, but that's not the decisive point in this case).

Having said that: I definitely enjoyed your video!

Last thing: the creator of the free synth sounds, a name really worth mentioning in the Kronos community along with Qui, yours and a bunch of others', is William Bush aka burningbush. And your video made it clear, that in some cases the orginal Bush collection sounds leave a slightly better impression than their equivalents in the Kronos2 factory banks, whoever tweaked them without convincing success.
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5

[enigmahack]

Jim, thanks for your insight!

It totally makes sense, and you were very articulate in how you explained. I understand your points entirely, and I'm just coming from a different angle. I haven't used the Berlin in a band context just yet, and it may very well become a favorite of mine yet. The stretch tuning isn't at all an issue for me either, just an observation.

My thought process around the imperfections comes from a position of looking at other libraries and such. Without looking a gift horse in the mouth, I'm very happy that these extra libraries comes with the Kronos 2, but have noticed flaws. Yes, there will be flaws in every sample library, sound recreation and so on... But having come from the Kurzweil world, I never heard anything like that with their pianos.

There's also a level of realism that the Kronos affords that the Kurzweil didn't as well.

Different folks will have different applications, and perhaps I have too high of a standard for certain things which is more than possible. If I'm being unreasonable, I'd rather have someone correct my way of thinking. I still stand pretty firm on this though: If I were to release a sample library, I don't think I'd let mistakes this easily fixed through. *shrugs*
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Korg Kronos 88 2, Korg Kronos 73, Kurzweil K2600S
Sound developer, custom sound designer and trainer/Kronos support - www.audora.ca for details!

[rob_tky]

Thanks Enigmahack for the video.
Indeed, on your video German Grand does sound better. I was expecting otherwise, anyway was not planning to upgrade.
By the way, German also has some resonance you found on Berlin. I can hear it on D6, a little on Eb6. But that could be the beauty of imperfections real instruments have ...
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Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73

[rob_tky]

By the way, I'm interested in Kurzweil as well. If I did not have Kronos, I would most likely have Kurzweil.
If you feel like making more videos, I would be interested in your impressions form using both Korg and Kurzweil. Just a thought.
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Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73

[enigmahack]

[burningbusch]

Regarding the differences in the step sequencer patterns, Korg informed me that the following Programs would be adjusted due to copy-write concerns:

I-A058: Kyrie
I-A087: Love On Train (F3)
I-A092: Sirius (C2)
I-A112: New Song (C2)
I-A119: The Metro (B1->E2)
I-A120: On The Run (B2)
I-A121: Sweet Dreams (C3)
I-A122: Save A Prayer (D3)

When I get a chance I will detail what people need to do to change this.

Regarding Kurzweil in comparison, remember the Kurzweil pianos (with the exception of the Forte which sampled each ntote) use FAR less samples than the Kronos pianos. A single sample can be stretched across several notes. This makes for a more homogeneous sound but not as realistic and, to the ear that can detect this, it creates a new set of sonic problems. I own many software pianos and most have "issues" with certain notes or a range of notes. The Kronos pianos, for having each note sampled, are EXCEPTIONALLY well done.

It is far easier to correct the unavoidable inconsistencies and issues found in every acoustic piano by simply taking a known good sample and letting adjacent notes use that (Kurzweil), than it is to deal with those issues on an individual basis (Kronos). But after you've played these detailed pianos for a while, going back to the homogeneous sound comes off as fake.

Busch.
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Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com

[enigmahack]

[rob_tky]

To add to the subject of Kronos / Kurzweil comparison, it would be interesting if you include your own subjective opinion/comments from your experience of using both. It would be valuable as we would not find it in product manuals.
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Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73

[burningbusch]

[NormC]

[NormC]

[EQula]

good job bro,
I've experiencing the note triggering thing which you talked about specially when playing open Hi Hat some of the notes become silent ?
This is weird

[jerrythek]

The copyright issue is about using someone else's music, or a well-known song to help sell something, or in a commercial activity. So if you are filmed at a trade show playing a copyrighted song, or you include it in a demo etc. it can cost you.

Regards,

Jerry