Korg Forums

[aron]

Honestly, think about it, what you are explaining is close to impossible. There is no global mechanism that will pitch up samples on key off - you would have to program this in for every single patch.

The pitch up you posted is so incredibly slight that you can barely hear it and I had the volumes way up - I heard what you are talking about it but it was borderline imperceptible.

If you really suspect your machine, you should reset it.

I hear what you are talking about but unless you can put a pure sine wave on an AL-1 program, set a somewhat long release time and hear what you said, you have to assume that whatever you are hearing is in the samples. There's no other way that the keyboard is "all of a sudden" pitch shifting every release for all the engines.

So, take an AL-1 program - put a single oscillator on it, increase the release time and play your sound - no effects and post that. Lets see if the pitch rises? If it doesn't, then you know it's in the sample player only.

In that case, then put a steady state wave (sin, triangle or even pulse wave) in the HD player and set a long release time and post that.

If it doesn't pitch up, what you are hearing is in the samples or programming.

If they DO pitch up, then try a reset I guess.
_________________
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad.

[SanderXpander]

Psychoacoustics? Sometimes you can hear something just because you are thinking you do. It's a real effect!

Whatever it is, I hope you get to the source of the mystery!

[Niven8]

Hi Aron!
Unbelievably, I just got back from my computer having done "nearly" what you have recommended. Im sorry you seem to be a bit fed up with this and I do value your advise. Below I've posted several takes of a saw wave (I thought the sound of a sine wave would be too close to the sound of this mysterious "shift". One oscillator...no effects and opposite to what you recommend, I've deliberately shortened the release to expose the problem.
The first two playings are just the end of an example...i.e without the initial note..I doctored this in Wavelab. The following examples are of different lengths with the "shift" at the end. What I dont understand is where this shift comes from? One oscillator...the envelope cuts dead, because there is no release...its almost like the sound of a piano's soundboard in some way, when you play a staccato note then put the pedal down.
Anyway I think everyones been very descent and now I think I should upset
some poor technician....I'll just repeat...live it sounds much worse, I cannot work out why.
Thanks to all of you for your help.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l05yiza60fmp50j/last%20mp.wav?dl=0
Niven.

[JohnDonovan]

Hi Niven,

Pitching in slightly late on this one (no pun intended!) - but just a thought following on from someone else mentioning room acoustics:

To rule out anything external beyond the Kronos itself is it a possibility to bring someone else's Kronos to your room to try and reproduce the same problem? Where abouts are you?
_________________
Kronos² / Nautilus / KingKorg / RK-100s / CX3 / Logic / ProTools / Sibelius

[Niven8]

Hi John,
thanks for replying....I've done mostly what people have suggested.
Different room...midied keyboard...all types of sounds, from different engines..sometimes it happens on piano sounds other times it doesnt?
I pulled apart the offending Africa Brass sound...the one I first heard this on...
and this is a sound I am very familiar with....and it's suddenly changed.
Its time I had a long journey to a technician..I wont trust a courier.
Thanks for you reply.
Niven.

[aron]

Can you try what I suggested - a sine or triangle wave? You used a sawtooth but guess what? I don't hear the pitch change on this example. I put it through a tuner and it seems to indicate the pitch doesn't change.
Are you saying you hear it on this newest example? Please try a sine wave and make the release time long. That way you will know if it's a key off that is doing the pitch change.
_________________
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad.

[Niven8]

Hi Aron,
You certainly are tenacious! I've more or less given up on it.
But tomorrow I'll have a go at changing it to a sine wave. I can actually hear just the slightest change with the one oscillator. When the other one is added it is more easily identified.
Thanks for your input. If ever your in London email me, I definately owe you a pint!
regards
Niven.

[SanderXpander]

It should be really easy to check digitally with a single oscillator. You can loop a piece in a DAW and use a tuner or zoom in on the wave and manually compare the cycle lengths.

[aron]

If I have the time, I can make a program that you can try.
_________________
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad.

[voip]

This effect is acknowledged in the literature e.g. in the Frontiers in Psychology article: Timbre-induced pitch shift from the perspective of Signal Detection Theory: the impact of musical expertise, silence interval, and pitch region, by Allan Vurma, in 2014 - states that:

"the difference in the sound pressure level (SPL) of the tones has also been reported to bias subjective pitch impression (e.g., see Stevens, 1935; Terhardt, 1974; Verschuure and van Meeteren, 1975). Generally, the pitch of pure tones below about 2 kHz tends to decrease and that above 4 kHz to increase with increasing SPL levels,"

This would be consistent with the observations by Niven8, i.e. playing the sound loudly leads to a particular perception in the pitch. As the sound decays (SPL falls), the pitch appears, subjectively, to rise.

Also take a look at: http://www.fonema.se/pilo/pilo.html which ends with the statement: "A special remark is that winds and strings in an orchestra tend to raise their frequencies a few cents at loud passages, presumably to conserve pitch. "

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[Niven8]

Hi aron,
I'd very,very, much like you to make a test program if it's not too much of a problem!
That would be perfect. And to really seal the problem, if you could post a recording of how it sounds on your Kronos, then I could directly compare it with mine! Rather a lot to ask, but that would convince me that there's nothing wrong or vice versa.
many thanks
niven.

[Niven8]

thanks voip for your input, but I dont think that volume has a major part to play in my problem. The musical expertise bit might, in some small way, as I have been trained at the RAM and Trinity College of Music London...but I would never call myself an expert. I'am a little fussy re tuning.
But to me, this is a big problem and I can fully understand people thinking I'm over the top. When playing some sounds, this really jumps out of the speakers especially when there's rests in playing.
Anyway apart from aron's latest idea, which is great...I think I might give up on this and take it to a technician. If I find out what it is I will definately post, in case some other poor wretched, over sensitive, musically insane Kronos user needs some info!
regards
niven.

[voip]

The only time I hear any pitch shift when playing the recordings is when they are played really rather loudly, likely beyond the point at which the tensor tympani muscles act to protect the ear. The muscle tension is likely to produce subtle changes to the cochlea, or auditory coupling mechanisms, and hence to pitch shift.

An interesting test to try would be to use another sound source, be it keyboard, VST, or rack synth, and see if the effect is still there.

I've hear quite a few bands go way out of key during performances, probably because of the pitch shift phenomenon. It tends to happen to relatively new, inexperienced bands the first few times they go on stage and play loud!

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[Niven8]

Hi voip!
Your obviously approaching this with quite some scientific knowledge re acoustics that I dont possess. But what I do know is that when I hear this artifact happening, the initial sound source doesnt have the same timbre of the secondary sound....they are quite different...re the very last examples posted. Its a thin brass like sound, but the "shift" sound is quite different?
No reverbs..no chorus..no delay....And the examples are recorded through a very cheap, seen better days, 10 year old computer. God knows what soundcard it has...I promise you, it is quite obvious at a very normal listening level to hear this problem. Possibly because my EVs are of a reasonable standard.
My wife is a ballet teacher not a musician...I asked her opinion
of what she thought of the end of a chord that I played her..again at a low level..(cheap loft extension, no real insulation of any kind) and she commented without prompting that the tuning went up.."a little".
I do apologise for asking people to put the volume up....but when I listened back to the recording that I put online....I could hardly hear ithe problem myself!
The mystery continues.
I need to compare like with like...two Kronos' (sic) same sound, same amp
same room...then I'll know. Enter a technician, and a long journey.
many thanks voip.
niven.

[SanderXpander]

I forget if this was already answered but do you have anything hooked up to the Kronos? Midi keyboard, computer, USB stuff, etc.