Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

ES2 Teminology

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Electribe
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Buleriachk
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 556
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:58 am    Post subject: ES2 Teminology Reply with quote

I am considering purchasing an ES2, but I'm confused about the terminology in the manual. One normally defines a time signature in terms of measures; e.g. a t/s of 3/4 means a measure contains 3 1/4 notes, with a "beat" as a quarter note, so a BPM of 120 means 120 quarter notes a minute, or 40 measures of 3 x 1/4 notes. (For Flamenco, then, one often uses a pattern of 6/4 or 12/4; 2 or 4 measures in a pattern, respectively.

The notes subdividing a quarter note beat (a note group) are then 1/4, 2 x 1/8, 4 x 16, etc, with triplet eighth and 16rh note groups as options.
-------------------------
The Korg specfies a "time signature" as 16, 32 8tr or 16 tr which doesn't make much sense in the scheme with which I am familiar (conventional music theory); apparently one can set a "last step" of (e.g.) 12, so it would seem that "steps" correspond to "beats" (i.e., 12 quarter notes/note groups)
It seems that "time signature" corresponds to the number of notes in a step, so one could have a "time signature" of 3/16? 3 steps, each with 16 16th notes?

WTF - this documentation is counter-intuitive to my experience of music - all my other sequencers make sense, including Ableton Live. But Korg's scheme makes no sense to me whatever...

Can someone explain Korg's religion to me? I'm worried there is a gotcha that won't let me program two measures of 3/4 time signature (conventional use)

Thanks
_________________
"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
http://www.flamencochuck.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sulfur
Junior Member


Joined: 29 May 2016
Posts: 71
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: ES2 Teminology Reply with quote

Buleriachk wrote:
I am considering purchasing an ES2, but I'm confused about the terminology in the manual. One normally defines a time signature in terms of measures; e.g. a t/s of 3/4 means a measure contains 3 1/4 notes, with a "beat" as a quarter note, so a BPM of 120 means 120 quarter notes a minute, or 40 measures of 3 x 1/4 notes. (For Flamenco, then, one often uses a pattern of 6/4 or 12/4; 2 or 4 measures in a pattern, respectively.

The notes subdividing a quarter note beat (a note group) are then 1/4, 2 x 1/8, 4 x 16, etc, with triplet eighth and 16rh note groups as options.
-------------------------
The Korg specfies a "time signature" as 16, 32 8tr or 16 tr which doesn't make much sense in the scheme with which I am familiar (conventional music theory); apparently one can set a "last step" of (e.g.) 12, so it would seem that "steps" correspond to "beats" (i.e., 12 quarter notes/note groups)
It seems that "time signature" corresponds to the number of notes in a step, so one could have a "time signature" of 3/16? 3 steps, each with 16 16th notes?

WTF - this documentation is counter-intuitive to my experience of music - all my other sequencers make sense, including Ableton Live. But Korg's scheme makes no sense to me whatever...

Can someone explain Korg's religion to me? I'm worried there is a gotcha that won't let me program two measures of 3/4 time signature (conventional use)

Thanks


I'll try to explain how the Electribe works.

Consider 16(th), 32(nd), 8(th)tr and 16(th)tr as the value of every step or beat as it's named in the menu (every step is a beat/note), not as the note value of time signature. Or take it as the quantization resolution. The Electribe can't play unquantized. When you record or sequence something all of your notes will fall into the quantization grid.

To build time signatures we need some math.

The Electribe has 16 steps for every bar so it comes easy to take a 4/4 measure as an example.

If you set BEAT to 16, that means that every bar has 16 steps of 16ths, i.e. every bar fills a 4/4 measure and every quarter can be divided in 4 x 1/16th. Since you have 4 bars you can have up to 4 x 4/4 measures.

Setting BEAT to 32 has the same effect of doubling the resolution and halving the number of measures. In fact every quarter can be divided up to 8 x 1/32nd. Every bar remains composed of 16 steps but every step takes the value of 1/32nd. So every bar now has the lenght of half measure and you can play up to 2 x 4/4 measures.

If you already have a sequence and you change the BEAT value from 16 to 32 you will hear the same sequence but at a double speed.

What about if you want a 4/16 time signature? It's easy. You can leave BEAT to 16 and have simply 4 measures for every bar (up to 16 if you set lenght to 4 bars) without subdivisions or you can set BEAT to 32, halving the number of measures but gaining a note subdivision (every 16th can be composed of 2 x 1/32nd). For example, with BEAT set to 32, your 4 bars that were only two measures in 4/4 time signature could also be 4 measures in a 4/8. You just need to consider that your minimum note lenght is fixed and your melody and rhythm structures need to be developed accordingly.

You could also think to double the tempo one or more times to obtain more subdivisions at the expense of the number of measuers (again, doubling the tempo halve them as if 16ths become 32nds, 32nds become 64th and so on untill you reach the tempo limit of the device), but this could be a problem if you need to synch more devices.

The same concepts apply for every time signature.

If you need a 3/4 time signature, you can't divide a measure in 16 uniform steps.

Let's say that BEAT is set to 16. In a 3/4 measure you have 3 x 1/4th, then 3 x 4 x 1/16th. 3 x 4 is 12. In fact for a 3/4 measure you have to set LAST STEP of every part to 12. Then you can have up to 4 x 3/4 measures with every quarter divided up to 16ths of a note. Strictly mathematically you could obtain the same number of measures also setting 16 steps per part and 3 bars of lenght. For sure they both give you 48 steps but I suppose there would be a substantial difference in the accents if you apply a groove style and in swing effect too. I never tried it.

If you set BEAT to 32 your quarter notes can be divided to 32nds but you can have only 2 measures (that's what you were looking for).

You have to calculate the number of steps needed to fill the time signature. Playing with BEAT and LAST STEP (but also TEMPO) parameters you can build time signatures but the possible number of subdivisions of the signature note value will come as a consequence.

Did I understand myself? I don't know Shocked Embarassed
_________________
https://soundcloud.com/elksoncouch
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwuU_RZ9Q-Il-3Q82smNp_Q
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buleriachk
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 556
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks much for the response.

That's what I was afraid of, and a deal breaker for me. I don't understand why Korg doesn't hire musicians that understand time signatures; to me this is an attractive device where the music has been implemented in very stupid ways (only for 4 on the floor). Someone should teach them what a "beat" and a "time signature" means to most musicians.


Nuts!
_________________
"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
http://www.flamencochuck.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sulfur
Junior Member


Joined: 29 May 2016
Posts: 71
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buleriachk wrote:
Thanks much for the response.

That's what I was afraid of, and a deal breaker for me. I don't understand why Korg doesn't hire musicians that understand time signatures; to me this is an attractive device where the music has been implemented in very stupid ways (only for 4 on the floor).

Nuts!


I don't understand but maybe I didn't express very well (unfortunately English is not my language).

I mean, if we take the most common time signatures like 4/4 and 3/4 I see no real difference. To obtain a 3/4 from a 4/4 you just need to cut one quarter. Easy. Then you shorten the bar lenght to 12, but wheter your track is 4/4 or 3/4, the quarters are composed by the same number of subdivisions. That's why I say that they're not different.

It's obvious that you can always obtain less from more, but never more from less, so I see the logic of developing such a device around 4/4, which I think is also the most used time signature in the genres the Electribe is aimed for. This doesn't mean that you can't think even outside the box (that's what I often try to do) and maybe achieve interesting results, but you have to live with the limitations of something that wasn't meant for that. Anyway I wouldn't say that the Electribes are not meant for 3/4.

For sure the problems arise when you want other types of uncommon or irregular signatures or you want your sequence to go out of the strict quantization grid (you can't). But hey, that's a "groove" machine (and what else), not a DAW, nor a classical musical instrument. I can't complain that my compact car hasn't been thought as a van nor as a vacuum cleaner. I mean, if they think it with four on the floor in mind is beacuse that's what better or mostly fits its purpose.

I've got a Zoom R8 that implement a simple drum machine and a track sequencer that are "rhythmically free". When I bought my E2 I got surprised that a dedicated groove box (which essentially is a drum machine plus synths) had not such a freedom but I simply understood it was my fault. The former is a portable recorder that has to be versatile for any kind of music, the latter has not. They are apples and oranges. To be honest I'm happy to have them both. If I'd need something rhythmically more complex I could ask the Zoom to do what the Electribe can't or I rely on my Maschine and my DAW softwares.
_________________
https://soundcloud.com/elksoncouch
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwuU_RZ9Q-Il-3Q82smNp_Q
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buleriachk
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 556
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One can't make a distinction between 3/4 and 6/8 in such an implementation, not to mention triplet note groups in 6/8. It is the reason that the unit can't export MIDI files, and can't communicate with Ableton except by saving audio files. The whole Midi implementation is screwed up for general music - SparkLe does it much, much better.

IMO, it is just stupid to do this - and "welds" the musical consciousness to 4/4 at the expense of the musical richness achieved by other times signatures.

It is totally not worth the effort (IMO) to try to paste lipstick on this pig (for my music, anyway), and was why I rejected the old ES's (come to remember now).

PS - No time signature is "irregular"; there are just alternatives to 4/4

That said, I'm outta here - I've wasted too much time trying to figure out how idiot engineers at Korg approach music.....

Again, many thanks for clarifying the issue for me.
_________________
"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
http://www.flamencochuck.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
thebiglebowski
Full Member


Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 123

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buleriachk wrote:
IMO, it is just stupid to do this - and "welds" the musical consciousness to 4/4 at the expense of the musical richness achieved by other times signatures.

It is totally not worth the effort (IMO) to try to paste lipstick on this pig (for my music, anyway), and was why I rejected the old ES's (come to remember now).

PS - No time signature is "irregular"; there are just alternatives to 4/4

That said, I'm outta here - I've wasted too much time trying to figure out how idiot engineers at Korg approach music.....

Again, many thanks for clarifying the issue for me.


I also want to thank you, with this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
_________________
Electribe2 / Volca Beats / Volca FM / Monologue
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jbvdb493
Full Member


Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buleriachk wrote:
One can't make a distinction between 3/4 and 6/8 in such an implementation, not to mention triplet note groups in 6/8. It is the reason that the unit can't export MIDI files, and can't communicate with Ableton except by saving audio files. The whole Midi implementation is screwed up for general music - SparkLe does it much, much better.

IMO, it is just stupid to do this - and "welds" the musical consciousness to 4/4 at the expense of the musical richness achieved by other times signatures.

It is totally not worth the effort (IMO) to try to paste lipstick on this pig (for my music, anyway), and was why I rejected the old ES's (come to remember now).

PS - No time signature is "irregular"; there are just alternatives to 4/4

That said, I'm outta here - I've wasted too much time trying to figure out how idiot engineers at Korg approach music.....

Again, many thanks for clarifying the issue for me.


You don't need to be pedantic about it, it's a groove box for electronic music. You don't like it move on, easy!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
musicmagus
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 27 Jul 2015
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations to the OP for being the first to find this limitation on 16 step grid based groove boxes!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sulfur
Junior Member


Joined: 29 May 2016
Posts: 71
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buleriachk wrote:
One can't make a distinction between 3/4 and 6/8 in such an implementation, not to mention triplet note groups in 6/8. It is the reason that the unit can't export MIDI files, and can't communicate with Ableton except by saving audio files. The whole Midi implementation is screwed up for general music - SparkLe does it much, much better.

IMO, it is just stupid to do this - and "welds" the musical consciousness to 4/4 at the expense of the musical richness achieved by other times signatures.

It is totally not worth the effort (IMO) to try to paste lipstick on this pig (for my music, anyway), and was why I rejected the old ES's (come to remember now).

PS - No time signature is "irregular"; there are just alternatives to 4/4

That said, I'm outta here - I've wasted too much time trying to figure out how idiot engineers at Korg approach music.....

Again, many thanks for clarifying the issue for me.


No problem. I'm glad I helped you not to waste your moneys. Now I understand and agree to some extent with your point of view related to musical expression but I think that the Electribe is just something else from what you'd wish and it simply doesn't suit your needs and your music that I'm listening now on youtube.

SparkLE (like Maschine and others) is a hybrid instrument, a controller that supplements a powerful software that runs on powerful computers. Maybe it would be unfair to compare it with a "cheap" and portable device that even shows some power flaws in what it's meant to do, anyway for me (who I am not a musician) is a good block notes and a really good fun.


ps: come on guys, don't open a fight, please.

pps: the (real) Dude is always right! Very Happy
_________________
https://soundcloud.com/elksoncouch
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwuU_RZ9Q-Il-3Q82smNp_Q
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buleriachk
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 556
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was comparing it to drum machines that go way back. I would use a drum machine, but Flamenco needs crisp, sharp handclaps, and every sample that came with those drum machines sounded like 4 drunk guys in a bar... Smile So I just use live and a laptop/Launchpad, and for portablility I finally found a program that loops .wav files on my iPAQ, but of course cannot change tempo.

I don't need to slice stuff (it is much, much easier to do that on a computer - and these are really inexpensive these days - less than the ES2 for something that will work). All I need is something that will play samples using MIDI conventionally (like a drum machine) that will run on batteries.

Oh, and also do 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures, which apparently are irrelevant to Korg's projected customer base (who probably know everything there is to know about the "Amen" break, however...)

That said, Korg's terminology is totally out of sync with every other rhythm device I have ever owned (and I've owned most of them). Most at least allow eighth notes (not to mention a quarter note beat to sync with BPM) ..... Korg goes through some very unmusical and unintuitive loops to accomplish very limited goals...

IMO, YMMV, of course...
_________________
"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
http://www.flamencochuck.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Buleriachk
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 556
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe what Korg means by "step" is a 1/4 note beat (so three "steps" would be a measure of 3/4), and by "beat" they mean 1/16th notes, 16 of which would make a measure of four "steps" (beats), so 3 "steps" would make a measure of 12 1/16th notes (which would allow 4th and 8th notes by simply omitting some of their "beats"(16th notes).

3/4 time would then be accomplished using 3 steps, with accenta every 4 "beats" (i.e.) (3 groups of 4 16th notes), and 6/8 by using accent every 6 "beats" (two groups of 6 16th notes)

One would then set 3/4 time by setting pattern length (beats/steps
per measure) to 3. So BPM would actually be "steps" per minute.
_________________
"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
http://www.flamencochuck.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Buleriachk
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 556
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

------Music----------------------Korg
----------------------------------------
------Beat (1/4 note)-----------step
------Measure (beats per)------Pattern Length
------Note Value----------------Beat----(1/16, 1/32, 8th trp, 16th trp)

For Music, every other Korg "Beat) for 8th notes, every 4 Korg "Beats" for quarter notes.

f this is true, the ES 2 might work for me after all..

But I dunno; maximum pattern length is one measure (16 "beats") of 4/4 time?
(But I guess one can chain them to get, e.g., 4 measures of 3/4 time (12 steps)
_________________
"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
http://www.flamencochuck.com


Last edited by Buleriachk on Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
musicmagus
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 27 Jul 2015
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3/4 = 12/16
Last step = 12
This means that you have 12 pads/step to make your sequence instead of the normal 16.
Last step parameter has to be set for each track.

The beat setting can be confusing to read about but it basically sets the resolution of each step in the sequence.

The beat setting is global on all tracks for your pattern.
By default it is 16. This means that each step/pad in the sequence = 16th note. Each of the 4 pages of the sequence = 1 bar/4beats.

You can change beat setting to 32. This changes the resolution of each step to a 32nd note. The 16 steps that used to be one bar/4 beats now go by in 2 beats. Each of the 4 pages of the sequence = 2 beats
You can change beat setting to eight note tri. and now each step/pad is an eight note triplet. There will now only be 12 pads/steps available because 12 eighth note triplets = 1 measure/4 beats.
Change the beat setting to 16 tri. and you still have 12 pads/steps but now they go by in 2 beats.

Now after that explanation I just have to say, I do not think this will be the flamenco drum machine of your dreams. Good luck on your quest!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Buleriachk
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 556
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has nothing to do with Flamenco per se. It just has to do with standard music (3/4, 6/8 phrasing, measures, etc.), and if this machine can do what a Boss DR-3 drum machine can do in MIdi. I just think it might have been translated to English by someone for whom it is a second language....

That said ----- in Korg's terminology

So "Last Step" refers to measure length in terms of "steps", which are themselves in terms of note values ("beats"), with each step defined by a consistent note value ("beat") - i.e., a step must have all 1/16th notes, or all 8th triplets, etc. (can't switch note value ("beat" = resolution) within a step)

So "Pattern Length" must refer to how many "last step measures" (maximum of 4) there are in the pattern.... rather than beats per measure
_________________
"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
http://www.flamencochuck.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Buleriachk
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 556
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you may be right. Trying to put lipstick on this pig is probably not worth the effort. Maybe I can edit one of the claps on the DR-3....
_________________
"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser
http://www.flamencochuck.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Electribe All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group