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Broadwave
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Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 1118
Location: Manchester UK
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 Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| sohatyi wrote: | | Kevin Nolan wrote: |
So it's a Japanese thing. There's clearly some quirky little fietish going on over there that they can't let up on - probably to do with size, cuteness, Anime or whatever; because it's only Yamaha, Roland and Yamaha releasing minikesy - no other company at all.
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*cough* Novation Mininova and Arteria Micro brute. |
I'm glad Novation had the guts to upscale the Mininova - The Ultranova is a seriously underrated synth.
But let's face it... These companies are businesses that NEED to make money, and if that means small keys, limited functions etc, then that's what they have to do. There are plenty of high end synths around, but I can't help but think that manufacturers have currently hit a brick wall as far as innovation goes 
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Rockitman
Senior Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 282
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:20 pm Post subject: IOS Apps |
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The only problem I see with IOS apps is that you have to have IOS 9.3 or higher to run Odyssei. Now before I can get it I have to make sure that all my other apps will run that IOS, or I lose other synth or most important my Forescore app. I am fortunate that my iPAD2 still is running many of these apps. I agree with Dave Smith though, eventually all these apps will no longer run unless you keep a bunch of old iPADs/phones lying around. It Makes dedicated hardware while more expensive, very appealing.
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: IOS Apps |
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| Rockitman wrote: | | The only problem I see with IOS apps is that you have to have IOS 9.3 or higher to run Odyssei. Now before I can get it I have to make sure that all my other apps will run that IOS, or I lose other synth or most important my Forescore app. I am fortunate that my iPAD2 still is running many of these apps. I agree with Dave Smith though, eventually all these apps will no longer run unless you keep a bunch of old iPADs/phones lying around. It Makes dedicated hardware while more expensive, very appealing. |
true.
But the apps are very cheap.
Once a synth is IOS , its a commodity at that point. Its going to be used by a much larger audience. Thats the way I see it.
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Ksynth
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Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1225
Location: Northern California, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: IOS Apps |
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| Rockitman wrote: | | The only problem I see with IOS apps is that you have to have IOS 9.3 or higher to run Odyssei. Now before I can get it I have to make sure that all my other apps will run that IOS, or I lose other synth or most important my Forescore app. I am fortunate that my iPAD2 still is running many of these apps. I agree with Dave Smith though, eventually all these apps will no longer run unless you keep a bunch of old iPADs/phones lying around. It Makes dedicated hardware while more expensive, very appealing. |
Apple makes disposable devices They want you to upgrade every two or three years. Planned obsolescence.
I have two iPads and too many apps to choose from. It becomes a chore trying to decide on any one workflow.
Just updated the OS on the iPad Air. No issues so far with apps.
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GregC
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Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: IOS Apps |
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| Ksynth wrote: | | Rockitman wrote: | | The only problem I see with IOS apps is that you have to have IOS 9.3 or higher to run Odyssei. Now before I can get it I have to make sure that all my other apps will run that IOS, or I lose other synth or most important my Forescore app. I am fortunate that my iPAD2 still is running many of these apps. I agree with Dave Smith though, eventually all these apps will no longer run unless you keep a bunch of old iPADs/phones lying around. It Makes dedicated hardware while more expensive, very appealing. |
Apple makes disposable devices They want you to upgrade every two or three years. Planned obsolescence.
I have two iPads and too many apps to choose from. It becomes a chore trying to decide on any one workflow.
Just updated the OS on the iPad Air. No issues so far with apps. |
Same thought on iPads. They are commodities. Disposable after 2 or 3 years.
They will still ' work ' after that time, just will run somewhat poorly, battery will not hold a charge as well, might not take the latest/greatest IOS update.
All that fun stuff.
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Akos Janca
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Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1158
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | Hey Greg and Akos - apologies for any hard hitting on your posts. Just frustration with bloody minikeys again. |
It’s no problem, Kevin, I didn’t take offense. I understand you, too. The primary buyers of these synths are different from us and they probably don’t necessarily need/want bigger keys. Interestingly, I have found that some music material is easier to play on smaller keys, especially some monophonic stuff (I have an MS-20 mini). I also noticed that for this I am unconsciously developing and employing new playing techniques (mainly without my thumb, sometimes almost like drumming with straight fingers, for example).
I don’t want to be ‘politically correct’. You know, the best Korg keybed for me is the RH2 in OASYS 88 so far. I like it even better than the newer RH3 (in SV-1 or Kronos). But I tried Yamaha Reface and loved it immediately. Very playable. Then I touched the Roland Boutique and it was strange for me, I didn’t like it at all. So, some smaller keys are working for me (I did the nanoROCK demo years ago, see my signature). But, of course, I prefer the normal size keybeds anytime.
I hope I’m wrong but I think the normal size, professional level synths are harder and harder to sell, unfortunately, because of many reasons, even if they are better instruments. It must be a difficult question for a manufacturer what to do. But I trust while they are serving the market with cheaper albeit innovative and adorable ‘widgets’, using the profits they are also developing something big in secret - as they always do.
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black953mj
Joined: 15 May 2014
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Broadwave wrote: | I'm glad Novation had the guts to upscale the Mininova - The Ultranova is a seriously underrated synth.
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Actually the Ultranova came first and the Mininova a built upon that synth engine with a few new tricks. 
But you are spot on - very underrated synth!
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burningbusch
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Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1203
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting video from the Korg sub out of Australia.
The first half talks more about the step sequencer and if you view the ML as more of TB-303 type device it makes a lot of sense. Consider the Roland TB-03 is $350, and while it's a direct clone of the TB-303 for those who MUST have that exact sound, the ML definately gets you into that territory without being derivative and more. The ML is cheaper, much easier to get around with decent sized controls and just has more capability. For me, I can't deal with the Boutique line. The controls are so tiny and I don't have fat fingers.
The second half goes through the micro-tuning capabilities including the Aphex Twin presets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXOLo8xaJVY
Busch.
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spaceman3
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Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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I can play regular size keys or mini keys.
I have a MININOVA.
Key size doesnt determine if a synth will work out for pros or not.
It is just personal preferences. |
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Akos Janca
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Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1158
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| spaceman3 wrote: | | Key size doesnt determine if a synth will work out for pros or not. It is just personal preferences. |
If you refer to my comment,
| Akos Janca wrote: | | I hope I’m wrong but I think the normal size, professional level synths are harder and harder to sell... |
then I want to add that it was a list only. I don’t think key size and professional level are strictly connected. There are counter-examples. But I do think that smaller keys - even if they could be very good - are not equally usable with normal ones. (Of course, it depends on the material we want to play, so in certain styles it doesn't become noticeable, therefore not important.)
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chilly7
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spaceman3
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Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Akos Janca wrote: | | spaceman3 wrote: | | Key size doesnt determine if a synth will work out for pros or not. It is just personal preferences. |
If you refer to my comment,
| Akos Janca wrote: | | I hope I’m wrong but I think the normal size, professional level synths are harder and harder to sell... |
then I want to add that it was a list only. I don’t think key size and professional level are strictly connected. There are counter-examples. But I do think that smaller keys - even if they could be very good - are not equally usable with normal ones. (Of course, it depends on the material we want to play, so in certain styles it doesn't become noticeable, therefore not important.) |
Actually, my comments were just my opinion of mini keys or full size keys.
I agree with your comments.
I wouldnt want to play a mini key synth if i were trying to play a beautifull piano piece, and i can see other instances where mini keys would not be ideal for certain playing techniques.
I would add that from my personal use of mini keys, i can play the same things as i would on full size keys, but it does take a little getting use to.
Also, most mini keys dont have enough octaves.
Lately, i mostly play my MININOVA from my KRONOS.
Givin a choice, i do prefer full size keys.
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Devnor
Full Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of people go thru the same hand-wringing every-single-time a product comes out with mini keys. I'm curious, do you not know how MIDI works? The Kronos is an excellent master keyboard. Do you not know how to program it?
Cheap synths have been the future for some time now. Not everyone has 4 grand to drop on a new synth every single year. These companies need quick sale products that generate revenue which in turn drives development of the higher end stuff albeit these days at a slower pace. My guess is everyone in this thread, including myself, has yet to max out the capabilities of their high end synths anyways.
Be happy new stuff is coming out which younger players can afford. These are the buyers of the mega synths of the future. When I started playing, a Jupiter 8 cost more than my parents nice car. Now is a good time to be a keyboard player! |
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Kevin Nolan
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Devnor wrote: | A lot of people go thru the same hand-wringing every-single-time a product comes out with mini keys. I'm curious, do you not know how MIDI works? The Kronos is an excellent master keyboard. Do you not know how to program it?
Cheap synths have been the future for some time now. Not everyone has 4 grand to drop on a new synth every single year. These companies need quick sale products that generate revenue which in turn drives development of the higher end stuff albeit these days at a slower pace. My guess is everyone in this thread, including myself, has yet to max out the capabilities of their high end synths anyways.
Be happy new stuff is coming out which younger players can afford. These are the buyers of the mega synths of the future. When I started playing, a Jupiter 8 cost more than my parents nice car. Now is a good time to be a keyboard player! |
You're missing two critical points:
- There is a real and tangible place for synths with proper keyboards attached, and, performance controls. That is what makes, for example, the VL1 so much more than it's virtual acoustic engine. It has a great keyboard with velocity and aftertouch control, three wheels to the left of the keyboard, lots of pedal connectivity and a breath controller.
You can NOT achieve the same from a generic MIDI controller and a module - the integration is not there - and you end up using a fraction of the module features.
From the Minimoog to the CS80 to the SY77 to the Sub37 - there is a big and important place for the integrated, performance synthesizer. Whomever is left in Korg these days does not understand that point.
- Secondly - the point isn't that this synth, on its own merits, is all that bad. It's that - minikeys is all that Korg are doing these days (KingKong aside). All of their excellent analogue synth 'engines' - microKorg, monotribe, MS20, KARP Odyssey, Minilogue, Monologue - ALL use either a ridiculous ribbon or minikeys.
So - if there was a range of synths of different sized keys and length keyboards - a range - to cater for real musicians and the non-musicians who see minikeys as sufficient out of ignorance of performance; then everybody would be happy - but - ubiquitously, universally - minikeys are hated - no players like them. The history of keyboard instruments has already settled the size of standard keys for standard humans - and this is not it. Korg have got this wrong, outside of Japan.
As siad - it's some sort of weird Japanese fetish associated with cuteness or Anime or some sort of Tokyo fashion trending in recent times - the Japanese are very particular that way and there's no turning them - and this is plainly what 's going on.
I also personally believe it's a generational thing of designers - a new generation of 'designers' emerging from universities with s**t degrees in 'design' and ' AV' and the like infiltrating these companies, and they haven't a clue. They think they are designing bubble-gum because they are devoid of any depth of cultural, artistic or indeed design integrity. I'm confident a great many of the designers in Korg today are nothing like designers of the past, and could easily migrate over to designing sneakers (and probably will).
To Akos - synths with standard keys are selling fine - Moog, DSI and Roland are doing fine with their standard keyboard sizes - this is a fetish by Japanese synth manufacturers only.
Last edited by Kevin Nolan on Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:47 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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sohatyi
Full Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2011
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| black953mj wrote: | | Broadwave wrote: | I'm glad Novation had the guts to upscale the Mininova - The Ultranova is a seriously underrated synth.
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Actually the Ultranova came first and the Mininova a built upon that synth engine with a few new tricks.
But you are spot on - very underrated synth! |
Came back here to point that out . On both points! I LOVE my Ultranova.
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Korg: M3M, EMX2, EMX1 (x2), ESX1, ER1, EA1, R3, MicroKorg, MicroSampler, Micro X, KP2, KP3, KPMini 1&2, KO1&2, KP Pro
Roland: SP808, MC505, Handsonic 10, Fantom X6, RC505, CG8
Emu: Command Station MP7 (x3!), Proteus 2000, Planet Earth, Virtuoso, Planet Phatt, XBoard49
Novation: UltraNova, Nova
Yamaha: RM1X, CS2X, DX11, DX Reface, YC Reface
Other: Zoom R24, Quasimidi 309, Beat Thang, Akai MPC1000 and a couple of Omnichords |
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