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I've had 2 surprising takeaways from these comparisons. First, the Kronos is no slouch when it comes to analog re-creations.
Agreed. Here is a video doing some similar comparison with the DeepMind12 and Kronos. Bottom line: Kronos can do more, just in AL-1, but the DeepMind12 is more organic with how it handles unison and some other functions. The filter on it is killer.
Enjoyed your video.
If i was in the market for an analogue synth.
The deepmind 12 is the one analogue that intrigues me.
Joined: 13 Jan 2013 Posts: 277 Location: London, UK
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:43 am Post subject: Synths with free-running envelopes
Mike Conway wrote:
chini wrote:
I now use a Waldorf Pulse 2 for a lot of mono lead work and the occasional pad sound utilising its paraphonic mode (up to 8 voice)
I was going to get the Pulse 2, but then the DM12 came out. If it was paraphonic saw (instead of pulse) waves, I might have stayed with it. I still might get one, later on. Andromeda is a beast!
Big difference in price!... Nevertheless the DM12 certainly sounds like a really capable synth. It did initially raise my interest, at least in a module form if Behringer were to produce one, until I realised that yet again a designer has missed the opportunity to implement free-running envelopes! Shame because the DM12 really does shine with very filmic evolving pads that I would certainly use.
Admittedly the Pulse 2 does not possess free-running ENVs either but it serves for straight analogue monophonic lead duties and occasional basic chord filler duties within my rig in a small portable format. It's actually the only synth in my rig that I would consider replacing should somebody release an analogue module that does have free-running ENVs! Ironically in the digital domain both Waldorf's Blofeld and Largo do have the function. I did consider getting a Blofeld but I would be compromising sonically for that unique analogue harmonic sound. I do use Largo for some free-runing sounds also but begrudgingly take my laptop on stage!
The dreaded laptop is another item I would willingly replace: nothing more uninspiring than seeing a laptop sat in a live rig! So until some bright spark comes up with a keyboard like the Kronos that incorporates Mac OS and a comprehensive audio/midi interface I will continue to lug the blessed thing around with me! I don't begrudge VIs, in fact it's good to have a mixture of analogue and digital textures/timbres to work with to produce an overall interesting sonic landscape; I just wish I didn't have to port a wretched computer to house them and relay midi! There have been rack designs in the past that are VST players but this is only a half way solution to negating the need for a laptop/DAW on stage.
I think I know why manufacturers aren't implementing free-running ENVs these days: it's because most buyers are using these synths at home or in a studio environment for composition and recording, not so much for live work.
In a recording environment most people are happy to keep a chord held down to cycle fully through ENVs to yield evolving sounds as they can dub as much as they like. On stage one needs ones hands free to trigger/play other sounds simultaneously so any long evolving sounds demand free-running ENVs that can be stab triggered. One sound I still use within my repertoire is an 8 second floaty type string patch I programmed on the EMU Morpheus back in the 90s! I have it zoned on the Kronos right hand along with an improvising lead sound coming from the Pulse 2. As I play my solo every note triggers this string patch and creates a wonderful wafting wash of evolving strings underneath the lead.
No doubt many of todays top end analogues like the DM12, P6/12 and OB-6 are more than capable of producing lush strings but because they all lack free-running ENVs I wouldn't even consider them. I have actually spoken to Dave Smith Instruments from time to time informing them of this omission in their designs, hoping they might eventually implement an OS update to the PM12 which sonically definitely appeals! but alas! it appears they continue to manufacture synths without this function despite them having such a fantastic sonic arsenal ! Also because the polyphony count on an analogue is rarely more than 6/8 I sense a lot of designers shy away from implementing free-running ENVs for fear of getting complaints/cries of "more polyphony please!"
By the way Mike Conway, your video demonstrates very clearly just how stark a digital synth is compared to an analogue! I love the Kronos but although it is very capable of mimicking analogue in terms of basic sound, the moment you compare it against a real analogue synth you can really hear the blinding difference between the two in terms of thick harmonic saturation. This is precisely why I chose the Pulse 2 over the Blofeld. _________________ www.henryframpton.com
Joined: 14 Nov 2014 Posts: 1042 Location: Orlando, Florida USA
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Synths with free-running envelopes
chini wrote:
Mike Conway wrote:
chini wrote:
I now use a Waldorf Pulse 2 for a lot of mono lead work and the occasional pad sound utilising its paraphonic mode (up to 8 voice)
I was going to get the Pulse 2, but then the DM12 came out. If it was paraphonic saw (instead of pulse) waves, I might have stayed with it. I still might get one, later on. Andromeda is a beast!
I think I know why manufacturers aren't implementing free-running ENVs these days: it's because most buyers are using these synths at home or in a studio environment for composition and recording, not so much for live work.
In a recording environment most people are happy to keep a chord held down to cycle fully through ENVs to yield evolving sounds as they can dub as much as they like. On stage one needs ones hands free to trigger/play other sounds simultaneously so any long evolving sounds demand free-running ENVs that can be stab triggered. One sound I still use within my repertoire is an 8 second floaty type string patch I programmed on the EMU Morpheus back in the 90s! I have it zoned on the Kronos right hand along with an improvising lead sound coming from the Pulse 2. As I play my solo every note triggers this string patch and creates a wonderful wafting wash of evolving strings underneath the lead.
No doubt many of todays top end analogues like the DM12, P6/12 and OB-6 are more than capable of producing lush strings but because they all lack free-running ENVs I wouldn't even consider them. I have actually spoken to Dave Smith Instruments from time to time informing them of this omission in their designs, hoping they might eventually implement an OS update to the PM12 which sonically definitely appeals! but alas! it appears they continue to manufacture synths without this function despite them having such a fantastic sonic arsenal!. Also because the polyphony count on an analogue is rarely more than 6/8 I sense a lot of designers shy away from implementing free-running ENVs for fear of getting complaints/cries of "more polyphony please!"
+1
Thanks for bringing up the Pulse 2... looks like that or the Blofeld would add a lot of analog sounding variety to nicely complement the Kronos.
The DM12 does look and sound mighty capable, but a module would've been a nice option. I don't want to break my live rig into 2 separate keyboard stands... quick setup, limited space, and less hassle are more important live.
And I really echo your sentiments on free-running envelopes. Even the lowly Micron has free-running envelopes if desired, envelope loop, and legato re-trigger as well, which is important in expressive playing of lead lines. It can define curves/slopes for each ADR element, and a separate Sustain level and Time. This kind of versatility is also found in the Kronos AL-1, but the Micron sounds more alive and vintage, perhaps due to its OSC and filter types, perhaps due to its Andromeda/Ion DNA.
There certainly is no shortage of choices to complement the Kronos, and half the hassle and fun is researching the various options.
Joined: 13 Jan 2013 Posts: 277 Location: London, UK
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Synths with free-running envelopes
psionic311 wrote:
quick setup, limited space, and less hassle are more important live.
And I really echo your sentiments on free-running envelopes...
Glad to finally hear others lamenting the lack of free-running ENVs!… it really is such a blinding omission these days!
(P.S. I do tend to edit my posts occasionally adding some poignant comments that can get missed on the original posting… re the Blofeld have another read at the end of my previous post!)
"Quick set up, limited space and less hassle" absolutely!...
I am always looking for ways to downsize my rig. However it's tricky to organise the filmic sound I produce that often involves spreading out the allocation of layered sound to cater for the large polyphony count at the same time as relaying midi CCs and all the various patch changes to the synths along with vocal effects and sax effects units!
I wish the Andromeda had been made into rack format as I rarely actually use its keyboard! Instead I am forced to have that classic L shaped type rig consisting of the Kronos with the controlling Roland A-50 above it and the Andromeda to my side. In an ideal world I would have only 2 keyboards and a desktop 16 note analogue poly on one keyboard stand, and a 4U rack to continue housing my Morpheus, Ensoniq MrRack, line mixer and PCM80 (sax effects)!
I swear out loud every time I have to battle with my 6U rack up and down the stairs! Recently though I have made it slightly lighter loosing the MPX1 which was providing effects for the Pulse 2- I can thank Korg's latest K update for that!
if Korg ever do bring out a workstation/master keyboard design with a full midi/audio interface/VST player and the Kronos engine I would buy it instantly! (hope they're reading this! ) _________________ www.henryframpton.com
Joined: 13 Dec 2008 Posts: 938 Location: Tucson, Az
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:46 pm Post subject:
Mike...very interesting snapshot and comparison, brevity and depth simultaneously. It was awesome; thanks again Mike! _________________ Kronos 2 61, Wavestation A/D, Yamaha Genos and others.
It was worth it and I think that many people learnt a lot from this video. I thought the DM12 was more different sounding than the Kronos. Wasn't initially in favor of the Virus TI but it had indeed a different flavour.
I had the feeling from your video that the DM12 tended to be better sounding in unison mode than the Kronos. To be honest, I don't find the unison mode in Kronos to be very good sounding. I had a Nord Lead 2X previously that was way better sounding (and is also a VA) in unison mode.
Of course not to forget that it is better to test it in real time rather than take conclusions based on YouTube videos (where every analog synth sounds digital of course ...because YT is a digital media ).
By the way, your video gave me interesting info. So, not sure I will go the DM12 route... _________________ Chris (Belgium)
Joined: 13 Jan 2013 Posts: 277 Location: London, UK
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: analogue vs digital
chris wrote:
@Mike,
I had the feeling from your video that the DM12 tended to be better sounding in unison mode than the Kronos.
...Of course not to forget that it is better to test it in real time rather than take conclusions based on YouTube videos (where every analog synth sounds digital of course ...because YT is a digital media ).
Actually it's logical the DM12 would sound better in Unison mode than any digital synth because it has the infinite harmonics that only analogue can yield. This becomes especially evident in unison mode because the stacking of oscillators invites even more complex harmonic textures. Any digital synth is limited at emulating these kind of harmonics even more so as it reaches the limit of its pre-programmed algorithm complexity.
If you imagine "digital" as being the frog that tries to leap over the road to get to the other side but each time he is restricted to only leap half the distance, he will always get closer to the other side but never actually reach it. Analogue on the other hand swoops over to the other side and anywhere infinitely beyond the road in one jump! In other words digital is constantly having to calculate divisions in a predetermined limit of numbers (an algorithm) to try and provide satisfactory results. By its very nature analogue sound doesn't use an algorithm but in complete contrast to digital it relies on VCO or DCO regulators to control the infinitely vast spectrum of unpredictable combinations of harmonic content. By the very infinite nature of analogue it needs to be reigned in rather than recalculated! Hence the main contributing factor that yields the character difference between the Kronos and the Virus is down to how their algorithms have been programmed.
As far as listening to the difference between a digital synth and an analogue one is concerned through YouTube or any other digital audio media, it will not hide the evident contrast in harmonic content between the analogue and digital as they are both being listened through the same source. Even in a high compression audio format you would still be able to hear the difference as far as harmonic content is concerned, actually presence too because it is the complexity of harmonic content that tricks the ear into hearing more presence- what is often referred to as "creamy", "warmth", "natural saturation" etc with analogue sound.
Hats off to Mike Conway Indeed! this is a great video that clearly demonstrates the difference between analogue and digital! perhaps at some point Mike could make another video comparing the sonics from an mp3 file and a vinyl record!… that should certainly blow the ears off the younger generation and remind the rest of us what we have been missing for the last 3 decades! _________________ www.henryframpton.com
Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 2219 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:25 am Post subject:
chris wrote:
I had the feeling from your video that the DM12 tended to be better sounding in unison mode than the Kronos. To be honest,
Yes, you hit it on the head! It totally excels at this. Having spent a few months with the Deepmind, I have made some sounds that I really enjoy. Some new ones, here:
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Posts: 251 Location: Izmir, Turkey
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:25 am Post subject:
Maybe my ears are not as sharp as yours, but I cannot hear a difference between real PolySix and MS-20 synths and the EXi's on the Kronos. Thus, I believe I don't need any more analog synths. _________________ Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506.
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 Posts: 3376 Location: Middle of nowhere
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:06 am Post subject:
That DM sounds good. When I wanted an analog to go with the Kronos I went with the Moog Minitaur. But that turned into a gateway drug and I then added the Karp, and later a Minilogue and I think they all sound great with the Kronos. DM is great but I now want a DSI OB6 and a Subseguent 37. When does this madness end! Hahaha Can you run a Kronos sound out and into the DM to put it through its filter?
Joined: 20 Feb 2017 Posts: 876 Location: Nemours - France
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:33 am Post subject:
Bertotti wrote:
That DM sounds good. When I wanted an analog to go with the Kronos I went with the Moog Minitaur. But that turned into a gateway drug and I then added the Karp, and later a Minilogue and I think they all sound great with the Kronos. DM is great but I now want a DSI OB6 and a Subseguent 37. When does this madness end! Hahaha Can you run a Kronos sound out and into the DM to put it through its filter?
Hello, what do you think of the Minilogue ? Does it bring some real new things to the Kronos ? And what about the sound quality ?
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 Posts: 3376 Location: Middle of nowhere
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject:
Liviou2004 wrote:
Bertotti wrote:
That DM sounds good. When I wanted an analog to go with the Kronos I went with the Moog Minitaur. But that turned into a gateway drug and I then added the Karp, and later a Minilogue and I think they all sound great with the Kronos. DM is great but I now want a DSI OB6 and a Subseguent 37. When does this madness end! Hahaha Can you run a Kronos sound out and into the DM to put it through its filter?
Hello, what do you think of the Minilogue ? Does it bring some real new things to the Kronos ? And what about the sound quality ?
Thank you for your response.
I love it and what sold me was a comparison of it to a Arp Solus. Go to the Minilogue thread with the video links in it. Kronos covers so much ground its hard to say it will add more then you want to need. I just added what wasn't quite there for me. Minilogue gives me some filter responses I couldn't figure out on the Kronos.
Joined: 20 Feb 2017 Posts: 876 Location: Nemours - France
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:19 am Post subject:
Hello there,
After one year looking for a synth which would add a real other sound to the Kronos, I've finally bought a Moog Grandmother.
The GM is perfect for what I was looking for : a root, big and ample analog sound. It reminds me the good old time of Minimoog in all the best 70's productions.
It's really a wonderful gift to do to our Kronos. Soon, I will sample it !!
Is there anyone here who got also a Grandmother ? _________________ Kronos 2 73, Moog Grandmother, Studiologic Sledge 2, Behringer Deepmind 12, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha P90 / Electro Harmonix Vocoder V256, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro / Soundcraft Mixer EFX12, JBL LSR308, Behringer FX2000 3D, Zoom MS-70CDR
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