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stultzsweeties
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: sysex Reply with quote

Absolutely-----

Our band "8 Miles High" doesn't use prerecorded material either we play everything live. That's why it takes me so long to complete a song because I really strive to make the live perfomance sound just like the song we're playing. including all the sound EFX. That's why I love the Triton Extreme so much because there isn't anything yet that we have played out live that doesn't sound exactly like the record. It may take a week or so to come up with a combi or sequence (16 possible timbres) that matches the missing instruments that our 4 piece band has to come up with to sound like the record. My only set back is playing only the essential parts that are noticeably out front while others get layed back in the mix.

Thank you so much for all your advice; I will be able to use your help by applying what you've taught me.

And again "with a little help from my friends"
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EdK
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Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks but I don't know how much help I've been. Should be thanking you with regards to even using an iPad. But it sounds like the 'end result' you and I are [trying] to achieve is the same. Finding the right patches is very time consuming for sure but worth the effort to sound like the commercial recordings of songs.

I got my Studio before Korg came out with the Extreme. The only modification I made is that I added additional memory as I needed it for Sampling.

My band is a dance/party/variety band called Groove Line. We perform a bit of everything. Pop, Top40, Disco, Funk, Soul, Reggae, etc. We do one song called "Groove is in the Heart" by Dee-Lite. There is a sound effect in the song that I couldn't find a preloaded patch that came anywhere close to it so I Google-d the song, found some history about it and learned the sound effect is actually Eva Gabor (sister of Zsa Zsa Gabor) most well knows from the TV comedy years ago called "Green Acres". In the theme song to that show, Eva Gabor sings portions of it and in one spot the lyrics are "I get allergic smelling hay". The sound effect using in Groove Is In The Heart is a sample of the word "I" that she sings. So I recorded the theme song on my computer, extracted the word "I" and saved it as a sample in my Studio. Then load it as one of the timbres in a Combi along with two other timbres I need, setup three zones in the Studio with each zone only sounding one of the three timbres. The only drawback is, I have to remember to load the Sample from the Studio's hard drive into the Studio's memory each time I powerup as its not saved in memory. Loading that sample via a series of MIDI commands whenever I might want to perform the song is too time consuming so I have to remember to manually load it before we start a gig. I'm thinking about possibly creating a 'Song" in unRealbook that's strictly a 'housekeeping' function and that 'song' always being the first song in a Setlist. I'll have to play around with that and see it that might work. I never tried issuing any MIDI commands that complex before. (i.e. selecting a sample from the hard drive and loading into memory).

I don't know about you, but I find Korg's keyboards to be far better sounding any any other manufacturers. Every patch is so rich and full.

My Studio has also been a real work horse. I've only had it in the shop for repairs twice in 10 years. Once was to internally re-solder the 1/4 output connectors and the other to replace the buttons (Combi, Prog, numerics, Bank, etc). as some of them became unresponsive. The technician pretty much has to dismantle the entire keyboard to get to the buttons. The buttons themselves are relatively inexpensive. But it's a labor intensive repair. Basically took the tech 1 1/2 hours to dismantle the keyboard make the repair then another hour to assemble it again. So, I just had the tech replace all of the buttons while he was in there and clean everything up at the same time. It was about a $350 repair.

Does the Extreme have a Vocoder in it? If so, have you ever played around with it? I've been meaning to but I find Korgs manuals (Parmameter and Basic Guides) difficult to read and understand. Been wanting to add the song "Let's Groove Tonight" by Earth, Wind and Fire to our playlist but I have to run a vocal mic into the Studio, run it through the Vocoder while playing the keyboard at the same time. Sort of like the talking guitar in Peter Framptons' song.
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stultzsweeties
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: sysex Reply with quote

I've done sampling myself but used differnet technique to achieve the sound.

Hey before I forget you mentioned earlier post that you would love it if unrealBook could work in an android. I think this may help:

http://androidforums.com/application-requests/359926-forscore-unrealbook-android.html

I'll get back with you about this post after my gig.
Sorry, gotta go,
Monte
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EdK
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Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.

I didn't see that exact thread that you sent a link to, but I did a lot of research trying to find an Android app like Unrealbook and ForScore.

Other threads/forums I've come across all had concerns with MIDI support.

Apparently MIDI is not very reliable on Androids. Also I couldn't find any Apps that could do both (display PDFs and send MIDI commands) plus I didn't want to wait, for who knows how long...if ever, a robust App would be developed for Android.

I was fortunate to get an iPad for free by signing up for Dish Network (satellite TV). They were runnng a promotion a few months back.

I gotta go too. Got church gigs all evening and tomorrow but I'll periodically be online.
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stultzsweeties
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject: Midi using iPad Reply with quote

Hey EdK,

You said you got an iPad: so did you download unReal Book yet? I use the Korg Triton Extreme 76, with unReal Book and midi works fantastic to select any Sequence, Combination and Program selected while looking at a song you've put in a list of songs on unReal Book. You buy a camera kit for downloading pictures from other devices and plug a usb A cable into it, then plug camera adapter into iPad and walla you have an iPad which controls song selection in an unReal Book song list created by you for your project, gig, show,etc. You can make a pdf of sheet music pull down midi in unReal Book and copy down sysex files in a correct order that will select Program, Combination or Sequence for your selected sheet music song. Same with words to songs. Sky is the limit with unReal Book and it will work by finding out what manufacturer and model of keyboard you are using with a usb A or B input. It has to have a usb input.
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EdK
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Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi stultzsweeties,

Thanks for following up. I completely forgot about this thread.

Yes...been using Unrealbook and iPad for at least 3 years now. Works great and I pretty much do everything you described. I don't use sequences so I've never tried that. I also don't play tracks so there's no need for me to start a track on the iPad when I pull up a chart although I did help a colleague do that.

I don't know if you do this or not but with some songs, I use two patches. One in Combi mode and another in Prog mode. During the song all I have to do is press the Combi or Prog button to flip/flip between the two. I precede the bank/patch commands with a SYSEX command to set the mode first (Combi or Prog). I also do use an vintage Korg M1 at the same time and send patch commands to it. The only difference with the M1 is it's so old that there are no banks. Just need to send the patch command.

Both of my keys do not have USB but I have an M-Audio USB to 5pin MIDI and the camera connector as my iPad is an iPad 2 (pre-lightning port).
So I go from my iPad to the Triton MIDI IN port then a MIDI cable from Triton MIDI THRU port to the M1 MIDI IN port.

Are you an Unrealbook "BETA" user? I am. In fact the developer added a function into Unrealbook for me. Since for many songs I can use the same patches, I wanted to avoid having to code the sysex/midi commands into each chart. What he did for me is allow the sysex/midi commands to be associated to a chart from a separate file. All I had to do was create a text file with a unique file name (other than the name of the chart) and tell Unrealbook the name of the text file to use in the MIDI panel. Can also hard code the commands into the MIDI panel (basically using both). The text file is read first then the hard coded commands. Between both keyboards, I might have 4 patches needed in a song (2 on each) and if I happen to need only one patch to be different, I simply hard code that command into the window and it overrides the patch that was initially set via the text file.

Ed
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EdK
Junior Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi stultzsweeties,

Thanks for following up. I completely forgot about this thread.

Yes...been using Unrealbook and iPad for at least 3 years now. Works great and I pretty much do everything you described. I don't use sequences so I've never tried that. I also don't play tracks so there's no need for me to start a track on the iPad when I pull up a chart although I did help a colleague do that.

I don't know if you do this or not but with some songs, I use two patches. One in Combi mode and another in Prog mode. During the song all I have to do is press the Combi or Prog button to flip/flip between the two. I precede the bank/patch commands with a SYSEX command to set the mode first (Combi or Prog). I also do use an vintage Korg M1 at the same time and send patch commands to it. The only difference with the M1 is it's so old that there are no banks. Just need to send the patch command.

Both of my keys do not have USB but I have an M-Audio USB to 5pin MIDI and the camera connector as my iPad is an iPad 2 (pre-lightning port).
So I go from my iPad to the Triton MIDI IN port then a MIDI cable from Triton MIDI THRU port to the M1 MIDI IN port.

Are you an Unrealbook "BETA" user? I am. In fact the developer added a function into Unrealbook for me. Since for many songs I can use the same patches, I wanted to avoid having to code the sysex/midi commands into each chart. What he did for me is allow the sysex/midi commands to be associated to a chart from a separate file. All I had to do was create a text file with a unique file name (other than the name of the chart) and tell Unrealbook the name of the text file to use in the MIDI panel. Can also hard code the commands into the MIDI panel (basically using both). The text file is read first then the hard coded commands. Between both keyboards, I might have 4 patches needed in a song (2 on each) and if I happen to need only one patch to be different, I simply hard code that command into the window and it overrides the patch that was initially set via the text file.

Ed
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stultzsweeties
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:09 am    Post subject: iPad/Korg/UnRealBook Reply with quote

Hey EdK,

Wow you've gone way beyond what I can do cause I'm using a generation 1 iPad. The capabilities are endless but what your ding with text is interesting. I kind of do the same thing without text by using 3 or 4 pages for the same song. Timing is a key factor with a lot of songs we do like the keyboard embellishment at the beginning and middle of "Eye of The Tiger".

Sure is great tp hear that you've been doing this for three years now. If most keyboard players knew this was possible it could add so much to the band's capabilities.

I also like the master iPad concept that UnRealBook has for several iPads cause the master could instantly add a different song to the list and it would come up on all iPads. Changing all presets for intruments that have midi or usb inputs.
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EdK
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Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi stultzsweeties,

Thanks! Well as the saying goes, need is the mother of invention or in this case, discovering Unrealbooks capabilities.

I'm not familiar with the iPad 1 so I don't know if there are any limitations from Unrealbook.

Are you able to create a hotspot in a chart to send MIDI commands? I do that in a couple instances where I need to go to another patch for a short period of time then go back to my original patch.

Just as I recieved your reply, I posted a question in one other categories if anyone can guide me on how to remove the bottom cover of my Studio. All tutorials or video examples show how it's done on the Triton Pro or Extreme. Both of them have metallic bottom but the bottom of my studio is made of wood.

EdK
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stultzsweeties
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Are you able to create a hotspot in a chart to send MIDI com Reply with quote

IdK,

I didn't know about charts in unReal Book. So exactly how does that work.


It may be good now to purchase a new iPad so the updated versions of unReal Book would help me to improve a show. Does it follow as you turn pages or do you set the timing. I think what you're talking about is what I do when I use seperate pages for a midi sysex change.
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EdK
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Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 99

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi stultzsweeties,

Oh...so I'm assuming you're using Unrealbook mainly just for sending patch changes?

I looked back in this thread and didn't see my history of what I was doing prior to Unrealbook. So, just to summarize....

For a few years prior to iPads even existing, I had several 3 ring binders of charts. Most hand written but also many from fake books or even multi-page sheet music. The time it took between songs to change patches on two keyboards was lengthy. If I had to setup 4 patches (2 on each keyboard) the fastest I could accomplish that took 20 seconds and that's if I didn't make any mistakes along the way. As you know, 20 seconds (or even 5 seconds) between songs is an eternity. So I looked for a better solution.

My first attempt at sending MIDI commands involved using a laptop and a couple freeware Windows programs. One of them were used to create and store the MIDI commands into .mid files. The other was used to build playlists (setlists) which worked very much like Windows Media Player but was designed to play MIDI tracks instead of WAV or MP3 files. Instead of actually having MIDI tracks to play all it contained were the SYSEX and MIDI commands and I named the files as the actual song names.

Well, that helped a lot but still bit cumbersome to navigate a mouse during a gig to select the MIDI files I wanted mainly because whatever song we were going to play next were not static. Not to mention now having to bring a laptop with me to a gig plus a small table to put it on as there wasn't enough room on top of either keyboard for the laptop. Anyway, the moderator of the MIDI forum sent me a message to tell me about a new product that wasn't even on the market yet called "Midi Patch Changer". It was a keypad device that looked like an overgrown hand calculator. The keypad was actually designed for point of sale systems and secured door entry systems. The company created new firmware for it specifically for sending MIDI commands.

So I bought the device along with its supporting Windows software program and with the help of the firmware developer, I used that for about 2-3 years. It worked great! No more lugging a laptop etc to a gig plus the device easily fit on top of my keyboard. The main drawback was it could only hold 100 unique pre-set midi command files. The files were accessed by pressing a two digit number into the keypad followed by the enter key so I had to write down what "number" was assigned to every song I needed a particular set of midi commands to be issued.

These two methods helped a lot but I still had to carry binders of charts with me.

Then the iPad came out and soon after Unrealbook. With Unrealbook, I could now scan my charts into PDF files, store the in Unrealbook by the actual song name and long with calling up/displaying a chart, I could also store MIDI commands with each chart. No more binders of music, music stands, laptops, etc to lug to a gig. just an iPad holder mounted on my mic stand. Now I could go to the next song we would play faster than the time it took the drummer to count-off. Nobody waited for me anymore.

Oh...also want to mention...I don't even bring a conventional mic stand to a gig any more either. I bought 2 boom mic stands that attached directly onto my keyboard stand. On one I have my mic and the other the iPad with a USB to midi connector going from my iPad to keyboard 1 then daisy chain from keyboard 1 to keyboard 2 with a standard midi cable. The iPad holder I use is the iKlip 2. It leaves the bottom of the iPad open in order to plug in the camera connector. Some other holders cover up or leave much to small of an opening for the camera connector. Of course, the newer iPad use a lightning port so I'm not familiar with what adapter is needed to convert it to MIDI.

That's a bit of my history but to answer your question about charts...

As I mentioned, most of my charts are single page and hand written or lead sheets. I have a handful of multi-page sheet music songs as well.

All you need to do is 'scan' your chart into a PDF file. Most printer/scanners come with the software to accomplish this. I happen to have HP but I have also used Lexmark.

The main thing to remember when scanning charts is to make sure the resolution stays below 200 dpi. I find 100-150 dpi to work well. It keeps the file small and and they load fast when selecting them from Unrealbook and still very legible even on the iPad Pro.

Also, when scanning multi-page charts (like standard sheet music), you need to remember to set the scanner to make a single file for a multi-page chart.

Scanning all of your charts is a time consuming process as it's only as fast as the scanner can scan each page.

Navigating multi-page charts during a gig is easy. Normally only one page is displayed at a time but when you need to go to the next page, you simply tap the right side of the screen to go to the next page.....or the left side to go back a page. In the case of songs that have repeats, DS/DC, Codas, etc. you can setup what Unrealbook calls "hotspots' which places a transparent blue box on the screen and in the hotspot you simply enter the page number you want to go to when tapping the hotspot and Unrealbook takes you right there instantly.

THere are several other cool features in Unrealbook available in every chart such as starting the playback of a WAV or MP3 file, highlighting your chart in places (just like using a standard highlighter on paper), and other features.

There are a couple ways of populating the iPad with the charts after scanning them. One method involves using iTunes, and the other using Dropbox. I don't use iTunes as I don't like how it likes to 'take over' every song file and even documents on the computer. I use Dropbox instead.

Prior to populating the iPad with the charts, I recommend creating unique folder names on your computer to segregate different types of charts. For example, I have a folder where I keep all my bands charts, another folder for fake books, another folder for charts for a Tribute band I play for occasionally, etc. This makes it easier to keep the charts separated in Unrealbook.

Anyway, once you have the charts organized on your computer, you then simply upload the folders into your Dropbox account. I have a free Dropbox account which limits me to 1gig of space which is far more than I actually need. I must have over 1000 charts and only use about 50mg of space.

Once they're in Dropbox, you simply go into Unrealbook, tap on the 'download' icon at the top of the screen and select 'remote files'. You then login to Dropbox from within Unrealbook. You can then download all the charts into the iPad/Unrealbook.

If you're interested, I can send you some screen shots or you can call me and I can walk you through the process over the phone. It's much easier to explain verbally than to type everything in a message or email.

I have a 16gig iPad 2 and still have a LOT of space left over.

Ed
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