Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Sub-bass on the R3

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg RADIAS / R3
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
tpantano
Platinum Member


Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:44 am    Post subject: Sub-bass on the R3 Reply with quote

This kindof goes hand in hand with my thread under the mixing section, but are your tips for making a sub-bass that contains mid and low bass frequencies, so that it can be heard on crap speakers yet still boom on subwoofers? I've been working by starting with two sines, one an octave lower than the other, with the higher one at half volume and the bass sine at full volume. I then use some drive pre-filter, and turn the filter down to a very low frequency and add the tiniest bit (around 10) of resonance. I then set the amp envelope to have 5 attack (so that it removes the R3s default click but not the basses punch) and 64 (half) release so that I can save an effect slot from being reverb.

The thing is, the release generates some higher frequencies for reasons I don't know why- I think it includes the R3s default end click in the release (goddamn I hate that click!) I've tried setting EG1s release up and then making the filter have a negative EG value, but that doesn't work.

So I turn to my EQ. Problem is, I want my subbass to boom when I'm playing through good speakers. When I boost my 50-160 hz range, the release frequencies go up, which is strange since they are higher pitched. Maybe the Qs too wide? Anyways, afterwards I add some compression... and it always distorts before I get it as loud as I want.

ANYWAYS, any tips/tricks that might be helpful?
_________________
Current: MS-20 Mini, Minilogue, SY77
Past: Korg R3, Volca Bass, X50, Mg Slim Phatty, Rld Gaia SH-01, Yamaha TX81Z
Have my freebie granular plug-in: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=192886
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
xmlguy
Platinum Member


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3605

PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those higher frequencies you are hearing may be due to the crap speakers themselves, as they vainly try to reproduce what you send them, while they are physically incapable of doing it, causing them to flex and violently Shocked hit the max limit of excursion to clip the signal and generate all kinds of bad Sad distortion (opposed to good harmonic distortion that you want in the signal Very Happy ).

You can put a clean 30 hz power sine wave into a speaker only to discover that it is putting out a ragged squarelike wave due to distortion. The signal isn't distorted - the performance of the speaker to conform to that signal is distorting. The signal is a request and a command, and those raggedy-ass speakers just can't do it no matter how hard they try due to the laws of physics and their design. Their failed attempt is what you hear, not your nice clean signal that you sent them. General, your army has been defeated in battle, and all you see now are the few remaining survivers of your excellent and elegant battle plan for a triumphic sine wave. You need either a better, bigger army or a different plan. General Lee had his "Pickett's charge" against the stone wall.

So basically, that's why you can't test good bass on crappy speakers/subs. Very Happy You'll need to rely on studio quality headphones to hear the low bass or use a real-time frequency spectrum analyzer/scope to see it. Or you can upgrade to reference monitors or other better speakers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tpantano
Platinum Member


Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear the higher frequencies through my full response headset, so I don't think it's the speakers. Note when I say higher I don't mean high- it's sort of like the sound you hear right after a tin trash can being slammed shut... not sure how to describe it. it's a very metallic release, which is weird since the bass is pure itself.
_________________
Current: MS-20 Mini, Minilogue, SY77
Past: Korg R3, Volca Bass, X50, Mg Slim Phatty, Rld Gaia SH-01, Yamaha TX81Z
Have my freebie granular plug-in: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=192886
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Timo
Platinum Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 3064
Location: Kaoss central, England

PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only relate to Radias but hope this relates to R3 too.

Radias (R3) is not great at synchronising the triggering of oscillators, and since you're using two identical oscillators an octave apart, the sync will be random each time you press a key. This may be less noticeable for leads, pads, etc, but where bass is concerned this might be dreadful as it leads to random wave-cancellations and can lead to massive volume inconsistencies and weird frequencyies/harmonics (possibly the tin-can sound you're speaking of).

So first tip, try using Oscillator Sync to sync both oscillators for maximum reliable consistency and punch. Set (de)tune to default (zero), so oscillator 2 isn't further warped by the osc-sync algorithm. All you're after is them triggering together, not warping.

Is EG1 hard-wired to the filter envelope on R3? (Like on Radias). If so, tip 2: ignore the standard filter settings and instead let EG1 do all of the filter work. To set this up, set the filter cutoff to zero. Then increase EG1 Int(ensity) to maximum. Set the attack and decay times of EG1 to whatever you wish, raise the sustain value to the same frequency you previously had the filter cutoff, and then set the release time to sweep the filter downwards and close it just before the audible "click".

Use EG2 for amplifier duties.

Not sure if the R3 has this, but there is also a dedicated "Punch" intensity setting within the amplifier menus. This adds a single-cycle transient pulse to the start (attack) of the patch, so be aware of it and set it to whatever you wish.

Tip 3: Use keyfollow on the filter for consistency throughout the key range. Otherwise, with the static filter cutoff and EQ boost too, some notes will be more resonant than others.

Tip 4: If you get distortion, turn the patch volume down, it may be distorting internally. Bass sounds are very powerful and heavy and can hog all the available bandwidth.

That's all I can think for now.
_________________
Korg Moss Soundset [Free Moss Set For All Workstations With Moss Expansion]
www.Infekted.org - Access Virus Community [Infekted.org - Original Access Virus Forum & Community]
Trinity V3 PBS | Radias KB | Virus TI Snow | Virus Indigo 1 | 505 Groovebox
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tpantano
Platinum Member


Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timo wrote:
I can only relate to Radias but hope this relates to R3 too.

Radias (R3) is not great at synchronising the triggering of oscillators, and since you're using two identical oscillators an octave apart, the sync will be random each time you press a key. This may be less noticeable for leads, pads, etc, but where bass is concerned this might be dreadful as it leads to random wave-cancellations and can lead to massive volume inconsistencies and weird frequencyies/harmonics (possibly the tin-can sound you're speaking of).

So first tip, try using Oscillator Sync to sync both oscillators for maximum reliable consistency and punch. Set (de)tune to default (zero), so oscillator 2 isn't further warped by the osc-sync algorithm. All you're after is them triggering together, not warping.

Is EG1 hard-wired to the filter envelope on R3? (Like on Radias). If so, tip 2: ignore the standard filter settings and instead let EG1 do all of the filter work. To set this up, set the filter cutoff to zero. Then increase EG1 Int(ensity) to maximum. Set the attack and decay times of EG1 to whatever you wish, raise the sustain value to the same frequency you previously had the filter cutoff, and then set the release time to sweep the filter downwards and close it just before the audible "click".

Use EG2 for amplifier duties.

Not sure if the R3 has this, but there is also a dedicated "Punch" intensity setting within the amplifier menus. This adds a single-cycle transient pulse to the start (attack) of the patch, so be aware of it and set it to whatever you wish.

Tip 3: Use keyfollow on the filter for consistency throughout the key range. Otherwise, with the static filter cutoff and EQ boost too, some notes will be more resonant than others.

Tip 4: If you get distortion, turn the patch volume down, it may be distorting internally. Bass sounds are very powerful and heavy and can hog all the available bandwidth.

That's all I can think for now.


Thanks, I'll try that. The R3 has all those features.
_________________
Current: MS-20 Mini, Minilogue, SY77
Past: Korg R3, Volca Bass, X50, Mg Slim Phatty, Rld Gaia SH-01, Yamaha TX81Z
Have my freebie granular plug-in: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=192886
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
meatballfulton
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As xmlguy wrote, speakers tend to be the real problem with sub bass. Played on a system that can handle super lows it sounds great, play it on something that has lousy low end response and it either disappears or (worse) causes distortion.

The human ear/brain has the interesting ability to "hear" a fundmental pitch even when only the upper harmonics/overtones are present.

Sines of course have no overtones, so as an experiment try listening to raw triangles, saws or squares pitched very low and they actually sound deeper than sines at the same pitch. This is the key for getting deep sounds to translate on lesser speakers...the sound isn't really there but your brain thinks it is.

It's also used in bass processing effects like Aphex's Big Bottom and others...generate some extra harmonics in the octave above the fundamental and suddenly it sounds like there is more bass energy with no EQ, extra amplification or better speakers.
_________________
I sing the body electric
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
geob.jennings



Joined: 22 Sep 2017
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Sub-bass on the R3 Reply with quote

tpantano wrote:
This kindof goes hand in hand with my thread under the mixing section, but are your tips for making a sub-bass that contains mid and low bass frequencies, so that it can be heard on crap speakers yet still boom on subwoofers? I've been working by starting with two sines, one an octave lower than the other, with the higher one at half volume and the bass sine at full volume. I then use some drive pre-filter, and turn the filter down to a very low frequency and add the tiniest bit (around 10) of resonance. I then set the amp envelope to have 5 attack (so that it removes the R3s default click but not the basses punch) and 64 (half) release so that I can save an effect slot from being reverb.

The thing is, the release generates some higher frequencies for reasons I don't know why- I think it includes the R3s default end click in the release (goddamn I hate that click!) I've tried setting EG1s release up and then making the filter have a negative EG value, but that doesn't work.

So I turn to my EQ. Problem is, I want my subbass to boom when I'm playing through good speakers. When I boost my 50-160 hz range, the release frequencies go up, which is strange since they are higher pitched. Maybe the Qs too wide? Anyways, afterwards I add some compression... and it always distorts before I get it as loud as I want.

ANYWAYS, any tips/tricks that might be helpful?


I know this is from 2010 Smile however I'm posting this only for future reference to be documented. I went through all the things the previous responses mentioned but without much success.

I did the exact same thing this poster mentioned and also got very deep and low bas through my crappy $10 headphones (not designed for bass) which was VERY encouraging. I'm feeling giddy with the thought of trying my subwoofer now. Unfortunately it had the annoying click as described. However, I assigned effect 1 as simply "filter" and turned down the cutoff very low, and then assigned the master effect as "filter" and turned down the cutoff low also. The click pretty much went away. I got some occasional noise when pressing a key and changing from POLY to MONO1 or MONO2 solved the problem. If thats not good enough then just make sure the waveform is sine or synthbass.

George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg RADIAS / R3 All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group