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Something in Program Mode that filters MIDI?

 
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Phinnin
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Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject: Something in Program Mode that filters MIDI? Reply with quote

I have a weird situation I cannot diagnose. Specifically, I seem to have a program that is filtering MIDI somehow and I cannot determine how.

The details:

I have a Combi for "Just What I Needed" by the Cars. Been using it forever without incident. Part of that combi is a program (AL-1) engine in U-BB080. Works like a charm.

I added an Alesis Vortex to the rig. I want to play that song with the Keytar so I set the Alesis to Channel 16 and added a MIDI-16 program to match the one I use for the Kronos itself. When I do that, the Program goes quiet. If I change that Combi slot to ANY other Program, the keytar works as intended. If I change the keytar Midi Chanel to 1, it works on that program.

But any channel besides 1 doesn't work for that program while in a combi.

I've gone through every page in the program and cannot figure out why it's filtering out the MIDI input.

I've also replicated this issue across several combi's (init) just to assure I didn't have some kooky setting in the combi, but like I said, any program will work on any channel except for this one program I want to use....

Any thoughts?
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amit
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Joined: 13 Jul 2015
Posts: 781
Location: New Delhi, India

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it might be some CC message that alesis is sending in causing this, or kronos resonding to some midi mapping.

look under global midi to what is kronos listening for, you might be able to filter incoming cc to troubleshoot the cause.
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 543
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turn off/disconnect the Vortex for a second. Now if you change the Kronos to channel 16, and try to play that program from the Kronos itself, does it work?

If not, the issue may not be the Vortex. Try saving a duplicate of the Cars program with another name, and use that in the combi on ch 16 and see if it works as intended without the Vortex.

If the Kronos does play the sound, but the issue only surfaces when trying to play it from the Vortex, try troubleshooting these:

1) make sure you're in Performance mode (PF), not Patch Edit mode (PE)
2) make sure you have fresh batteries; the Vortex can go wonky on weak batteries
3) hold the Vortex parallel to the ground and try again. The accelerometer can be overly sensitive. I had an issue where there was a constant vibrato on everything, and it turned out to be the accelerometer. Maybe your accelerometer somehow affects the MIDI volume due. I disabled my accelerometer:
https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/how-do-i-turn-off-the-accelerometer-on-my-alesis-vortex/
4) check the S1 slider, see if moving that affects the program's volume
5) try putting the program on another channel besides 16
6) double check which Vortex zone you're using, upper or lower, and make sure the MIDI channel is 16
7) double check the Kronos' program's keyboard range/zone in your combi, and make sure it matches the Vortex range (try using the octave up/down buttons on the Vortex until you get a sound)
Cool press the Kronos' COMPARE button and see if volume returns

Hopefully one of those will fix the issue. Anything to help a fellow Vortex user help that instrument get more visibility!
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Phinnin
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Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the help all,

Okay, this one is a mystery. Here is what I am getting:

- Put fresh batteries in Vortex.
- Copied "Cars" program to another slot.
- Made a brand new combi for Just What I needed. (Init Combi)
- Put Vortex on Ch.1 to start... Plays "cars" just fine.
- Moved Vortex to Ch.16 to match new combi location. No sound from Cars
- Moved program on channel 16 to another Program, works.
- Moved program back to "cars".. No sound.
- Moved both Vortex and "cars" to ch.15 to see if it was channel specific.
- However: If I move "cars" to ch.1 and Vortex to Ch.1, I get sound.

So all systems on Vortex seem to be working as intended. And all systems on kronos appear to work fine with interacting with Vortex; EXCEPT for this one Program, and only on Ch.2-16...

So there must be something hidden in the program itself to make it filter.

Maybe some hidden Karma Feature? GAH.

I guess I need to try to recreate the program from scratch?
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19naia
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Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 631

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is your global Channel Midi channel 1 Question

Global channel to match global channel between two devices working together is the fail safe when it comes to Midi complexities. If midi ch1 is your global setting on Kronos, then that is a clue to why channel one works and not others, but still not by any means an answer to what is going on with discriminating against just the one program you mention.

Karma can mix things up. Midi I/O on Karma modules will have to take input from the global channel or the channel of the input device/external keyboard and then the output channel being set to midi channel 1 would stop the timbre from sounding on any timbre channel but channel 1. But for Karma to do this, it has to be on and set up as such in Midi I/O page and possibly In Thru Zone settings involved.
Also, in Combi, karma is not program specific. It affects any timbres set to any of the active module's output channels. You can change programs all you want and have Karma affect them the same as long as the changed program is not put to combi with program karma settings copied over.
Does scrolling through programs in a timbre change the effects and Karma setup per timbre? I doubt this.
So i doubt it is Karma doing this voodoo. If karma does have any hidden tricks, i think turning Karma off is the trick to outdo all tricks Karma has.

I have heard of issues with external devices being able to send midi messages that silence kronos. But why would only this one program cause any disabling/filter message to be received while others do not? Midi is midi and cannot be ignored unless the program itself has a place to block it. If the timbre is set to INT it can recieve midi but not transmit, but that is timbre specific and not Program specific. The program by itself, is global channel specific and if that is channel midi-1-global, that explains why it works on channel 1 But still no explanation why no play on other channels. Timbre should receive on any channel it is set to receive on to INT.

When you tried other programs, did you try other AL-1 programs? Just to check that it is not AL-1 specific.
PolySix engine has some very simple midi capability omissions that seem too easy to not have included, but when i looked up the origins of PolySix, its authentic state was from a time when midi capabilities were not so elaborate. Seems despite all the elaborate capabilities of Kronos, authenticity of the synth engine was worth not having a primitive arppegiator send midi data out.

I am not saying it is Aliens any more than i am saying it is a system bug, but you cannot rule out Aliens any more than you can rule out system bugs.

I went on and on and still have no clue.

I am with you on the "Hmmmmmmm" train.

Thanks for the puzzle. I hope to see a real answer show up from someone.
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 543
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phinnin wrote:
- Moved program on channel 16 to another Program, works.
- Moved program back to "cars".. No sound.

I guess I need to try to recreate the program from scratch?


Your troubleshooting eliminates general Vortex or Kronos issues, and all points to that one program. It's a mystery for sure, but to solve the issue I'd just create a new program from scratch.
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