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Montage 2.0 & Midi
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fjs714
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
Beautiful sounding project
Frank
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fjs714 wrote:
Hi,
Beautiful sounding project
Frank


Thank you, sir! Smile

I'll post updates in the Music section.
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Davd C. Polich
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: Montage 2.0 & Midi Reply with quote

D575 wrote:
Montage 2.0 still did not address the current Midi situation that many have called for.... having a 3rd Midi Mode (Midi+) for setting Midi Channels for the Parts, this could/would complement the current other two Midi Modes (Single and Mulit) this is still very much needed by many, Unfortunately what we still have here with Montage 2.0 is a garden wall built around the current Midi restrictive design when trying to use Montage and Midi in the traditional sense with other keyboards, Yamaha seems fixed in this debate when trying to understand the argument, if this new 3rd option could be introduced and even if this restrict the ethos of montage in some way it would still allow some flexibly in certain situations in a traditional sense with a complex midi keyboard rig having a 3rd Midi Mode (Midi+) which has been missing from Montage as part of the stardard we have always known which many have called for..this includes a famous name in a recent interview while talking about his on-stage keyboard rig when complimenting the Montage, Don't get me wrong Montage is still a fantastic keyboard but there is room for further improvement, Let's hope the engineers at Yamaha consider this, So to conclude...this would be a 3rd options not a fixed position to compliment the other two Midi Modes for Montage.


I've read and re-read your post numerous times now, and I still don't understand what you are asking for. Third Midi mode? What would that even be?

You have two modes on Montage - Single, which puts the whole instrument into transmitting and receiving on one channel. This is the mode I am in
all the time. Other mode is Multi - each part of a Performance transmits and receives on its own channel.

What cannot be done with these two modes?
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got admit you've got my attention too!

In particular - what is MIDI+ ? Could you describe what you're looking for (and is MIDI+ a specific and known term in some quarters, or a Mode on the Motif or Kronos for example?)
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D575
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: Montage 2.0 & Midi Reply with quote

Davd C. Polich wrote:
D575 wrote:
Montage 2.0 still did not address the current Midi situation that many have called for.... having a 3rd Midi Mode (Midi+) for setting Midi Channels for the Parts, this could/would complement the current other two Midi Modes (Single and Mulit) this is still very much needed by many, Unfortunately what we still have here with Montage 2.0 is a garden wall built around the current Midi restrictive design when trying to use Montage and Midi in the traditional sense with other keyboards, Yamaha seems fixed in this debate when trying to understand the argument, if this new 3rd option could be introduced and even if this restrict the ethos of montage in some way it would still allow some flexibly in certain situations in a traditional sense with a complex midi keyboard rig having a 3rd Midi Mode (Midi+) which has been missing from Montage as part of the stardard we have always known which many have called for..this includes a famous name in a recent interview while talking about his on-stage keyboard rig when complimenting the Montage, Don't get me wrong Montage is still a fantastic keyboard but there is room for further improvement, Let's hope the engineers at Yamaha consider this, So to conclude...this would be a 3rd options not a fixed position to compliment the other two Midi Modes for Montage.


I've read and re-read your post numerous times now, and I still don't understand what you are asking for. Third Midi mode? What would that even be?

You have two modes on Montage - Single, which puts the whole instrument into transmitting and receiving on one channel. This is the mode I am in
all the time. Other mode is Multi - each part of a Performance transmits and receives on its own channel.

What cannot be done with these two modes?
Montage lacks the ability to freely change midi receive channels per part....there is plenty to read on this over at the yamaha synth forum inculding the link I have provided at the beginning of this thread...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my Yamaha EX5 and on my Kronos I can set the receive MIDI channel of several parts/timbres to the same channel to allow layering from a single MIDI channel. I do not believe that the Montage allows this?

I might have missed something, but I decided with the Montage when I looked at it before Christmas that it was easier to leave it in single channel mode, and, because I have a PC running Cantabile as a MIDI hub in my rig, to use Cantable to process the MIDI as required going to/from the Montage. That works pretty well, but not everybody would want a PC in the middle of their rig.
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sani
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Montage 2.0 & Midi Reply with quote

Davd C. Polich wrote:

I've read and re-read your post numerous times now, and I still don't understand what you are asking for. Third Midi mode? What would that even be?

You have two modes on Montage - Single, which puts the whole instrument into transmitting and receiving on one channel. This is the mode I am in
all the time. Other mode is Multi - each part of a Performance transmits and receives on its own channel.

What cannot be done with these two modes?


Put shortly, it is almost impossible to use the Montage with an external midi controller. Everything exceeding a single part being controlled from an external keyboard is almost impossible or requires a capable keyboard like a Kronos or something from the more expensive Kurzweils. I'm wondering that you do know nothing about this.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to be popular after this post (!!):

Right - I'm up to speed with your issue and - I'm with Yamaha on this. The Montage is not a multitimbral workstation. It's a 16 part performance based synthesizer.

As much as I'm not keen on the over complexity of this instrument - as i defended when it came out - being an owner of many Yamaha classsic synthesizers including the DX1 and CS80 - part of the "DNA" of Yamaha is to make synthesizers with a "Performance" mode.

Even on the CS80, there are synth parameters - and then a totally separate set of controls (above the Ribbon) that are purely performance controls. This was carried over to the DX1 (and DX7) - it has two sets of memory banks (program memories) but separate performance memories (that can store up to two parts - but without separate MIDI receive channels).

So unfortunately Derek and co - you are "suffering" from dual problems that are of your own making 1) the false impression that the Montage comes from a 16-prt multitimbral workstation lineage (despite Motif, it doesn't - it comes from the CS and DX lineage) and 2) an inability to see where Yamaha are coming from on this one - a multi-part performance, single MIDI channel instrument.

All your desires and arguments are legitimate musically - but - no instrument can service all legitimate musical requests - and Yamaha are 100% entitled to design the instrument as they see fit - and 100% consistent with their legacy of performance synthesizers. From a MIDI stand point - this is a monotimbral synthesizer. So is the Matrixbrute, DSI Prophet 6, Subsequent 37, Prologue, ... - an utterly consistent concept. Nobody is calling for 16 MIDI receive channels on a Subsequent37 - (they could - separate MIDI channel per oscillator, filter, LFO, ...) - but nobody (even you) is calling for it - so if you can understand why - then you understand why the Montage receives on only one MIDI channel, despite the opportunities you perceive otherwise.

So it's not stubbornness or a lack of understanding of your plight that they are not changing - they just aren't thinking the same way as you about it - and for better or for worse that's what lead to this complexity of design - an astounding performance mode with up to 16 timbres (parts). think of it as 15 extra parts on top of what a subsequent 37 owner gets from this synth - what a bonus!!

I'd even do as far as to say that they probably couldn't actually bow to your request - they'd likely end up opening up a can of worms design and feature / bug fix wise. This instrument has been designed, from the ground up, around 1 MIDI channel.

Get your head around "Yamaha Performance" - because that's what you own - and - it's not limited, incomplete or flawed in design - it's "Yamaha Performance DNA"!! You're just thinking the wrong way about it, and have misplaced expectations of it because it superficially looks like a workstation (and is resolutely not!).


Get you head round it!!


Kevin.


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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah. well, Kevin, you are of course perfectly entitled to your opinion as we are to ours, and that does not make you any less popular in my book. Smile

For your argument to be valid, then Yamaha would not have a mode in the Montage that is in effect a master keyboard mode (which they advertise as a means to allow to integrate the Montage in your MIDI ecosystem), but one in which I think (and I am happy to be corrected) that you can set the transmit channel, but the receive channel remains fixed to the part number. Which is a bit daft if Yamaha have gone to the bother of allowing the TX channel to be changed to allow the Montage to play the part of a Master keyboard, you'd expect the part TX channel to match the RX channel.

As I said above, I can actually live with it and just keep the Montage in single channel mode, due to the decision I took to base my new rig around a computer hub running Cantabile, so that can do any MIDI transformation I need, and it is far easier to program Cantabile to do that processing.

For me the real daftness that annoys me is this set list issue I described above. If the Kronos can allow me to select a set list externally via MIDI, and Yamaha have gone to the effort to allow you to select setlist banks via MIDI, it is odd/daft that they have hamstrung the selection of a setlist.

Just my opinion of course Smile

Yamaha are well within their right to listen to and accept/reject feature requests, what rubs me is after spending a lot of money on what is a top flight keyboard that even polite constructive criticism is shut down by a patronising response. It would be an easy fix as well. Easily achieved vis the same route that Yamaha, following a recent OS upgrade, now allow people to select performance scenes via a MIDI CC from an external source.

So, yes, that is a source of frustration. I would be castigated if I did not objectively listen to my customers in my line of work, and it would not hurt Yamaha to listen to their own. That is the issue for me.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't opinion Derek - my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I've just described the design philosophy of the Montage as publically declared by Yamaha.

You just have to accept it - (or not).

If and when I buy a Montage - I'll actually relish that aspect to it - I even do so already with many of my "MIDI multitimbral" instruments - for example - I use two OASYS - and one of them is resolutely only ever used on 1 MIDI channel in my studio - it renders it a different beast, psychologically when I'm conceiving music on it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong - and there are many specific advantages - to perceiving an instrument as mono-timbral (from a MIDI stand point in a MIDI setup).

I understand your frustration - but Yamaha have done absolutely nothing wrong here - and flagged this aspect to Montage from the outset (in fact we had debate after debate about this at the time - and you just can't accept what "Yamaha Performance Mode" means). To me - it's a extra level of capability - an add on - and that's the way Yamaha designed it - on the CS80, DX1, and - Montage!

I'm being hard-lined here to play devil's advocate - but - earnestly so - Yamaha _have not_ done anything wrong here.

As a friend and colleague to all here - I fully 'get' your frustration for sure!!
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I don‘t care any tiny bit, if Yamaha really considers the emperor‘s new clothes as their „design philosophy“, or if they would consider it „fish and chips“. Same for the bizarre reasoning of Yamaha staff like Bad Mister. Very Happy

Some users try to get their way around the limitations, while others like me laugh their socks off about such a midi concept, and about other basic Montage design flaws from my user perspective. I would never ever want something like a Montage anywhere in my gear, for many reasons. But I understand that it can still be useful to others.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree in part with you. I don't own one because, despite my original enthusiasm - having looked over the manual and seen the demos, I just felt it was too complicated for me to learn for now.

12 years later - and I still don't fully understand MOD-7, STR-1 or Karma on the OASYS - and I really do like the OASYS and use it a lot and hope (still) to get round to learning those technologies - but I just feel the Montage was similar in complexity - many, many pages with bucket loads of configuration options I'd take forever to get my head around and knew it's lie there for years, not understood.


I like to get to know the instruments I buy inside out - but am a bit fatigued by overly complex synths like those - I own the JP80 too and similarly it's too bloody complicated.

And for me, several specific "alarm bells" rang about the Montage when Yamaha started to promote it - mostly that they barely mentioned FM syntheisis - so to me - it' an FM synthesizer thats _not_ about the FM! When I looked into it's FM edit options, they frankly looked below par programmability wise compared to the SY77 / 99 (from a user interaction point of view) - and critically - they don't use looping envelopes - a vital feature on the SY range for creating motion control in AFM and RCM programs.

So overall, I am disappointed with the Montage design - it's too complicated, does suffer the idiosyncrasies mentioned on this thread, doesn't 'service' it's 8-operator FM engine well enough and for me should have other synth engines from Yamaha's legacy of amazing synth types.


All of that said - I do respect the attempt - it's a first engagement into synthesis by Yamaha since the EX5 and AN1x (not considering the Motif to be a syntheizer per-say) - so a 20 year gap - and it is deep - and as I have flagged above - with a quite well defined design philosophy that nods back to their legacy of "Performance Control".


I have to say I like the look of it - a class act in that regard - and at the end of it all it sounds quite magnificent - so I'm perpetually debating whether to get one and still can't make up my mind.
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sani
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
So overall, I am disappointed with the Montage design - it's too complicated,


Huh, you seem to be overwhelmed with the Montage design which is actually very easy to understand and to master but somehow you think you know exactly why yamaha designed something in the way they did. Question
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin you say that:

"The Montage is not a multitimbral workstation"


I don't own a Montage, but at the FAQ on the product page on yamaha.com I can read this:

"MONTAGE can be used by 16 part Multi timber?

Yes. MONTAGE's Performance can have 16 parts in max.

*All the preset Performances are made by within 8 part."

also

"You can create full, complex multi-instrument arrangements and complete Songs, using DAW."


So, Yamaha are actually saying that the Montage is a multitimbral instrument...
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said it wasn't multi-timbral.

I said it isn't:

1) A multitimbral workstation
2) Multitimbral from a MIDI stand point

Indeed Montage is 16 part multimbral - the Jupiter 6 and 8 are 2 part multitimbtral, my VP330 is 3-part Multitimbral.

Nobody's arguing that point.

They are arguing whether or not it can accept 16 MIDI input channels - as on a 16-part workstation or 16 part MIDI multitimbral device. they are very different concepts.

Indeed even Kontakt, EastWest Play engine and so forth can be configured to be either 16-par multitimbral - or 16 part multitimbral on 16 separate MIDI channels - so multitimbral capability does not need to be associated with separate MIDI channels per timbre.

You could even say that a Minimoog is 4 part multitimbral - it has 3 oscillators and a noise source all capable of generating different timbres.

As said - nobody'd denying that.

The central point being debated where is - Yamaha see it as part of their Performance mode the ability to layer / split 16 timbres. But they do not regard this as a device to enable them to be triggered on separate MIDI channels.

Thinking about it, it's clear it would be impossible to implement 16 MIDI streams into the current OS with all that implies; so without a complete OS rewrite it's likely never going to happen.

But as I indicated before, there is no call to make a Minimoog, or 'D' or Boutique JU-08 respond to multiple MIDI channels - and Yamaha are in my view just regarding this as a synth with lots of sound options, that responds on 1 MIDI channel. Perfectly normal behaviour like those in Moog, DSI, Korg, Roland, ...
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