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How many CPU´s have Kronos?
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Synthee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: How many CPU´s have Kronos? Reply with quote

I read the manual of my Kronos 2, interesting reading, I can really recommend it.

But I found a strange thing.
On page 8 it says:
The KRONOS uses multiple CPUs for playing synthesizer
voices, and a separate CPU for effects processing including
IFX, MFX, and TFX.


As far as I know, Kronos 2 have one CPU, the Intel Atom D2500, which have two cores.
And two cores can count as two CPUs.
And the word "multiple" can of course mean "two", but for me that word sounds like more than two.

So where does this separate CPU for effects come from?
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Synthee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see now in the Kronos specification that they say:
A portion of the multicore processor in KRONOS is devoted to generating voices, and a separate portion is devoted to generating effects.

So "a portion" maybe is some kind of virtual CPU inside the CPU core I guess.

Do you think that is the case, that Korg mean multiple virtual CPUs?
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Gunnar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Atom chip has two cores. I read the statement in guide as well, and interpreted it as one core has the primary task of running the synth engines while the other has the primary task of running the effects.

Though I agree with you that multiple sounds like more than two, it is valid terminology to refer to a dual core system as a multi core Smile

The Linux kernel has the ability to pin either processes or processing threads to a given core, which frees up the scheduler from having to decide at run time where to run any given segment of code. When the processing load can be accurately predicted by the programmers ahead of time, choosing which core to pin processing to will give more deterministic overall performance. Which in an instrument like this, is a good thing. My interpretation of the statements in the guides is that this is what the Kronos does. It pins engines to one core and effects to the other to have more deterministic performance, aka predictable polyphony limits and predictable effects processing.

In addition to these main two tasks, those two cores will also have to handle the input from the keyboard, knobs, sliders, etc, run external/internal MIDI, drive the user interface, and run the OS, etc.. The guide isn't clear on where that is done, so maybe it is spread between the two cores. Perhaps input from the keybed and controls is baked partially into the synth engines.. Who knows? Doesn't really matter as long as it works Smile
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Synthee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answer Gunnar, and I agree, the most important thing is that it works, and it really does, Korg has done some clever programming, and I am very satisfied with my Kronos. Smile

But Im still curious, Korg using the plural word "Voice CPUs" and plural are always two or more, and the singular word "Effects CPU", and singular is always one.

With my limitations in advanced mathematics, I get two plus one to be three. Wink

So with two CPU cores in the ATOM Chip, we still miss one CPU.

Im not sure exactly how the ATOM chip is constructed, but for me a "core" is the lowest form that you will call a CPU, I wouldn't call e.g a thread or a process for a CPU.



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Gunnar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Atom is a DualCore without hyper threading support so there will not be any virtual cores, just the two physical ones.

But that doesn't mean a single core is only usable for one thing, like just effects or just synth engines. They will also run the ui, make sure the tempo led is updating, gather input from keybed and other places, make sure audio is routed to DA converters and out, run the USB audio interface, etc... The Kronos is running a version of Linux after all, which is a multitasking, and there will probably tens or perhaps even hundreds of sub processes running on that thing at any given time, which are also running on those two cores. So when one is dedicated to effects, it means perhaps 50% of core2 is effects. Perhaps synth engines is spread 50% on each of the cores and that is why it says CPUs. Or perhaps the wording in the UI is incorrect. Who knows?

Again, I have no real clue, just thinking out loud Smile
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

My question is would it matter. The use of the ATOM cores is implementation detail of how Korg have programmed the OS and Kronos software. We have no influence over it, so why worry about it? Smile

The processor load screens are useful to ensure that you are not maxing out the processor loads for voices and effects.
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studio460
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the 2011 Atom D2500 is the CPU, the general processor, perhaps there's a pile of ASICs (application-specific processors) in the board as well? I read that the D2500 handles GPU tasks as well, whereas in more capable systems a separate GPU chip is used (a GPU is a type of ASIC). Also, do DSPs count as "processors?" Then there's also the "CISC" and "RISK" (reduced-instruction set) CPU monikers. I'm not an EE, just wondering out loud.

Perhaps more important than a faster CPU would be a dedicated GPU and some discrete GPU RAM to make the UI screen graphics more responsive? With a dedicated GPU, as opposed to the "integrated graphics" in the Atom, the CPU would then be freed up to do more heavy-lifting.
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Cpilot
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget that there are two main boards in the Kronos. The other board (than the Intel) also contains a number of processors.
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Synthee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gunnar wrote:


Again, I have no real clue, just thinking out loud Smile

Me to, but its interesting to hear your theories Smile
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Synthee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek Cook wrote:
Hi,

My question is would it matter. The use of the ATOM cores is implementation detail of how Korg have programmed the OS and Kronos software. We have no influence over it, so why worry about it? Smile

The processor load screens are useful to ensure that you are not maxing out the processor loads for voices and effects.

No, as I said earlier, it works and Im happy Smile
(but Im also curious why Korg talk about multiple CPUs. Wink )
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Synthee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

studio460 wrote:
While the 2011 Atom D2500 is the CPU, the general processor, perhaps there's a pile of ASICs (application-specific processors) in the board as well? I read that the D2500 handles GPU tasks as well, whereas in more capable systems a separate GPU chip is used (a GPU is a type of ASIC). Also, do DSPs count as "processors?" Then there's also the "CISC" and "RISK" (reduced-instruction set) CPU monikers. I'm not an EE, just wondering out loud.

Perhaps more important than a faster CPU would be a dedicated GPU and some discrete GPU RAM to make the UI screen graphics more responsive? With a dedicated GPU, as opposed to the "integrated graphics" in the Atom, the CPU would then be freed up to do more heavy-lifting.

Yes, I thought about that too, GPU on board Intel chips can be very powerful.
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Synthee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cpilot wrote:
Don't forget that there are two main boards in the Kronos. The other board (than the Intel) also contains a number of processors.

Yes, thats interesting, today I started to check out images of the Kronos boards on internet to see if there may be an effectprocessor on another board.

All those years we have spoken about Kronos with its Intel ATOM chip that controls everything, and maybe there are more important chips inside it?

But to be true, I think that the other chips on the other boards are there for controlling USB, MIDI, sound in and out and so on.
But Im not sure.
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I am at the happy age in life where if something works then it is good enough for me! Smile
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gunnar wrote:

But that doesn't mean a single core is only usable for one thing, like just effects or just synth engines. They will also run the ui, make sure the tempo led is updating, gather input from keybed and other places, make sure audio is routed to DA converters and out, run the USB audio interface, etc...


Actually, the Kronos does have multiple processors.

Many of the functions above are handled by a dedicated ARM processor, which communicates with the Intel motherboard via USB. So technically, it does have two processors. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korg could have easily installed a quad core CPU and still make a ton of money. Don't understand why they went with a dual core when even 32bit linux supports quad core. Right now most bottle necking is at the CPU only for performance issues. I don't count RAM allocation size part of performance . Korg could have hit a "better" home-run with a quad core even though they did hit a home-run.

With that said I think Korg utilizes certain cores of the CPU for certain aspects of the Kronos. Example the voices uses both cores and the effects only uses one core while other things in the Kronos does the same thing.

Also the Kronos does have a video processor and they may utilize it also for processing audio. Its been shown the video processors do a better job for processing audio than regular processors. Maybe?

Also CPUs can be little chips that just process so I am thinking one of their boards have these chips on their. I haven't been inside of the Kronos but does it have a soundboard inside somewhere? We know it has a motherboard but what are the other boards?
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