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Kronos 2: How many have installed second SSDs?
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studio460
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:01 am    Post subject: Kronos 2: How many have installed second SSDs? Reply with quote

I was wondering how many Kronos 2 owners here have installed second SSDs? Does anyone know what the largest SSD that's compatible?
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Broadwave
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a Kingston V300 240GB in my K88 2 - Works fine.
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studio460
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! Since I'm new to the Kronos, could you explain briefly its application? I know the Kronos employs SSD-streaming, but I'm unclear on what needs to run from user RAM (i.e., the 768MB left over after the default PRESET.KSC loads in the 4GB RAM), vs. what lives on the much larger SSD storage space, and how those data are used. Do they have to be moved to the user RAM at some point?
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Broadwave
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An example, in the most simple form - You may have a drum loop sample that's 20mb, roughly 10% of that sample is loaded into Ram (aprox 2mb), and while the Kronos is playing back the 2mb from RAM, it also prepares to deliver the remaining 90% of the sample for playback directly from the drive.

So, you might have a 1GB string library, but only 100mb is loaded in RAM.

In other words the Kronos doesn't need to load all the sample data into RAM, only the first part - It's a very efficient way of doing things.
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studio460
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I guessed that's what they meant by "streaming SSD," but wasn't exactly sure how it worked. Extremely clever of Korg. Not sure how the memory architecture works in the system (which I believe is a 32-bit version of Linux). It seems like you would want the largest SDDs available so that you could load a lot of samples. Or, if all the available third-party sample libraries only add up to XXXGB, then that's all you would possibly need.

I would like to be able to convert my (future) Omnisphere patches to Korg-format samples somehow and store them on the Kronos. But as I understand it (and I know very little about this stuff), you need to add envelope data and other stuff to the raw PCMs to make them playable.

Still, I would much prefer to have all of my favorite sounds in my Kronos hardware. I just got my Nektar LX25+ MIDI controller yesterday, and hooked it up to my MacBook Pro/Logic Pro X DAW this morning, and I gotta tell you, I'm quickly learning that I'm not a fan of playing computer-based sounds. I can sense the latency even on a fast Core i7 Mac with 16GB of RAM and an SSD.

I keep musing about getting a Motif XF. It can hold two flash-RAM boards up to to 2GB each (for a total of 4GB of non-volatile RAM), but they're hideously expensive and I don't exactly know if they work the same way. Anyway, thanks for the explanation!
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KK
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

studio460 wrote:
But as I understand it (and I know very little about this stuff), you need to add envelope data and other stuff to the raw PCMs to make them playable.

Yes, as with any other sampler. I sampled the best sounds of my old synths, then sold them (except one) when I got my K2. They sound even better now with the excellent Kronos effects. One trick is to save your new samples as a program using the already existing parameters of a compatible one (similar needed envelopes for filter and amplitude, etc.).

About "RAM to disk %" usage, it depends on several things like type and length of samples. On one hand, things like the EXs12 (Bosendorfer piano) and the K2 PRELOAD (which includes the huge Berlin grand samples) use long unlooped samples and respectively load only 3,5 % and 5,2 % of their disk weight in RAM. On the other hand, libraries mostly containing short looped samples will use way less disk space, but will load a higher percentage of their size in RAM. One example is the EXs19 which contains quite a few synth samples with short loops, along with longer ones for strings, etc. This one loads 8,9 % of its disk size in RAM, so about 116 Mb.

I enjoy creating new multisamples with my K2 as I designed a simple procedure which works just fine with a software tool I use. It is now easy for me to create multisamples with the smallest disk size possible and with the longest loops which will remain near imperceptible.

As a comparison, these will load about 23 % of their small disk size in RAM, which means I can create many more before ever needing to buy a second hard disk. Of course, again the need for a second hard disk depends on which type of sounds you keep, etc.
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meatballfulton
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

studio460 wrote:
I keep musing about getting a Motif XF. It can hold two flash-RAM boards up to to 2GB each (for a total of 4GB of non-volatile RAM), but they're hideously expensive and I don't exactly know if they work the same way. Anyway, thanks for the explanation!


Just FYI from a former Motif owner:

The Motif XF (and MOXF and Montage) flash memory once loaded acts just like ROM...the samples are immediately available on power-up. The memory is directly accessed by the CPU, no streaming into RAM required...in fact the MOXF and Montage have no RAM at all.

BTW I wouldn't call $600 for 2GB "hideously expensive". It's not the same type of flash memory that's used in $10 USB thumb drives. The Motif XF sold for about $600 less than Kronos and the current Montage (with the flash memory built in) is the same price as Kronos.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

studio460 wrote:


...... I can sense the latency even on a fast Core i7 Mac with 16GB of RAM and an SSD.



I suspect there is a reason why you are getting significant latency. I am a singer & am very sensitive to latency in the cans but dont have much trouble with the software instruments as I play them in logic and the notes roughly end up where I intending them to be without quantization. I am on a 2014 Macbook pro running LogicX.

Some pointers for starter:

Try lowest possible buffer size your machine will allow, try low latency mode so logic automatically bypasses latency inducing plugins, MIDI interface has to be good if you are using MIDI cables, If using USB then remember USB a shared bus with all other usb devices. I use a MOTU MIDI EXPRESS XT USB on a separate USB port to my hub (It is still shared but i find it makes a difference). With big libraries & heavy programs it is harder to fully avoid noticeable latency, but certainly not so with Logic's very optimised instruments. Try using headphones as your monitors being 5ft away will introduce another 5ms of latency.

I just want to make sure you don't get discouraged off LogicX/software instruments for this reason Smile

Regards

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Fibcouple



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

studio460 wrote:


I keep musing about getting a Motif XF. It can hold two flash-RAM boards up to to 2GB each (for a total of 4GB of non-volatile RAM), but they're hideously expensive and I don't exactly know if they work the same way. Anyway, thanks for the explanation!


I must say I was also not in a mood to spend 600 bucks on the flash upgrade - I found a good used Motif XS instead - Gave me all the sounds, I wasn't too sad about extra 1200 'arps' which I didnt get with the XS as I haven't utilised their potential much anyway. But for extra sounds you can add cheap RAM.

Yes it will mean that you will wait for it all to load on startup. But I am used to a bit of waiting, with Kronos also taking its time before its available. I was pretty shocked by it in the beginning but am used to the delay in gratification now before my synths are available to play when I first enter the studio Very Happy
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studio460
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KK wrote:
About "RAM to disk %" usage, it depends on several things like type and length of samples . . .

Thanks for that excellent explanation, KK!
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studio460
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

meatballfulton wrote:
The Motif XF (and MOXF and Montage) flash memory once loaded acts just like ROM...the samples are immediately available on power-up. The memory is directly accessed by the CPU, no streaming into RAM required...in fact the MOXF and Montage have no RAM at all.

Thanks for that further detail! Between both your and KK's posts, I now understand the Motif's flash-RAM a lot better. Is it accurate to say that Kronos' streaming-SSD capability performs the same function but in a different way?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fibcouple wrote:
I suspect there is a reason why you are getting significant latency . . .

Thanks for all your help, man! The latency I was experiencing was with my MacBook Pro's Bluetooth turned on. I was using a pair of Sony BT headphones—once I disabled BT in macOS' system preferences, the latency reduced significantly.

Fibcouple wrote:
I must say I was also not in a mood to spend 600 bucks on the flash upgrade - I found a good used Motif XS instead - Gave me all the sounds, I wasn't too sad about extra 1200 'arps' which I didnt get with the XS as I haven't utilised their potential much anyway. But for extra sounds you can add cheap RAM.

I didn't realize you could add system RAM to the XS. Yeah, I think the flash-RAM for the XF is a bit pricey ($250 per GB), but the functionality it adds is pretty cool. Of course, I'd rather have that option than not. If I buy two 1GB flash-RAM boards (the maximum "usable" limit), that adds another $500 to the price of the keyboard.

Fibcouple wrote:
I just want to make sure you don't get discouraged off LogicX/software instruments for this reason . . .

Thanks! Me too! I can't wait to try out Spectrasonics' Omnisphere once I get all my systems set up and get more familiar with Logic! That's one of the most amazing pieces of modern software I've seen. As I said, it's the perfect tool for processing the real-world sounds that I plan to record in the field.
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meatballfulton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

studio460 wrote:
meatballfulton wrote:
The Motif XF (and MOXF and Montage) flash memory once loaded acts just like ROM...the samples are immediately available on power-up. The memory is directly accessed by the CPU, no streaming into RAM required...in fact the MOXF and Montage have no RAM at all.

Thanks for that further detail! Between both your and KK's posts, I now understand the Motif's flash-RAM a lot better. Is it accurate to say that Kronos' streaming-SSD capability performs the same function but in a different way?


No, streaming is quite different. The OS puts some of the samples into RAM and then loads in more as needed. It is up to the OS to guarantee that the proper samples are in the RAM at any given time. At no one time are all the samples in RAM. In theory, the size of the sample set for any given patch is limited only by the size of the hard drive.

The Yamaha flash memory acts like ROM, all samples are there all the time. It is less OS intensive and doesn't require a hard drive. However, it is limited in overall sample size. For comparison, the ESX11 Legendary Strings is 2.8 GB and the EXS12 Austrian Piano is 6GB. Some sample libraries for computers are even larger...one of the Kontakt pianos is over 10GB and I'm sure there are some that are much larger.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

meatballfulton , do you really believe that Yamaha has discovered "the wheel" and VST industry & computers are so
behind in tech , when for more than 20 years they use DFD (direct from disk technology) and 2GHz DDR5 SDRAM ?
Just FYI , the only way to reproduce a sample in realtime is to use at least a 1000 times faster than flash card/HD/SSD
memory cell that is only the "Ram" in only 2 available ways , either preloading the whole sample in Ram , nor loading the initial
portion of it (of approx 1Mb) that computer VST plugins and Kronos use , any other method adds significant latency !
AFAIK only Macronix photographic layer Rom memory cells (NOR flash) can be used for acceptable realtime reproduction of preset samples !

All latest sample keyboards work this way and the diference in booting time is that some keyboard brands like Yamaha use a
"cheating" way to load only the first selected/preset sound on board Ram when booting and continuing loading while you operate
keyboad for the next 2 minutes ... no big deal ! Wink

Hope this helps
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manishthatte



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos 2: How many have installed second SSDs? Reply with quote

studio460 wrote:
I was wondering how many Kronos 2 owners here have installed second SSDs? Does anyone know what the largest SSD that's compatible?


Well... just recieved my kronos2.
What I think is, I will add more ram and a second ssd when the time comes for me to replace my battery...
What say folks?
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