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Sample conversion with KSTool

 
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dfahrner
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Bend, OR

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:44 am    Post subject: Sample conversion with KSTool Reply with quote

Wed Jun 21 - I'm trying to convert some Krome sample files (that I made with Kromatic, a set of samples from a classic Deagan vibraphone) to the Kross format, using KSTool V1.0.3. KSTool loads the Krome META.IMG and SAMPLE.IMG files correctly, I think, and shows the included samples and multisamples. But when I try to convert from Krome to Kross with the File menu option, the program hangs. Has anybody been able to use KSTool successfully to make this kind of conversion? I'm doing this on an old XP laptop - could this be the problem?

If anyone has been able to convert Krome .IMG files to the Kross format, I could send you the files; and if you did the conversion for me, you'd end up with a much better set of vibraphone samples that Korg provides, too...send me a PM...

df
__________

Mon Jun 26 - OK, some progress: I've got KSTool V2.0.0 running on a Win 8.1 machine, and not hanging up; I can load a Krome META.IMG file, with multisamples and samples are shown correctly; and I can covert "Krome to Kross" with the File menu item - I get the message "META and SAMPLE.IMG generation done!" at the bottom of the KSTool window. But I can't save the converted file data - the "Save as Kross" File menu item is not in bold and can't be selected (neither are the "Save as Krome" or "Convert to Kross" items, but obviously I don't care about them). Any ideas?
__________

4PM - Thanks to help from Manuel Cardenas on the Facebook "Korg Sample Tools" group, things are working (I think) - you don't have to manually save the converted files, they are automatically saved in a new folder named "META" in the root directory of drive C: ...some better instructions (than videos in Spanish) would have made things easier...
__________

Thu Jun 29 - Got my Kross and the converted .IMG files load correctly, at boot time from the root directory of the SD card (just the way the Krome can load new samples)...I copied my Krome vibraphone program that uses these samples into the Kross (manually, parameter by parameter) and, with minor tweaking, it sounds just like the Krome version (or for that matter, the Kronos version)...and the 9-lb. Kross will be a lot easier to carry to gigs to serve as a tone generator for my Xylosynth mallet controller...

The program parameters of the Kross and Krome, and the Kronos HD-1 engine, are almost identical, and it seems like it would be relatively easy to make a program that could convert sample-based programs for use on any of these instruments...

The Kross and Krome's ability to load new samples seems pretty significant to me, and I'm surprised that neither Korg nor anyone else makes use of this...
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beerbelly46



Joined: 20 Mar 2018
Posts: 18
Location: Notts,UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: loading samples into Kross Reply with quote

Hi,
Are you using a kross 1 or kross 2 to try this ?

Also ,do you have to hold any buttons down when switching the kross on ? or just turn it on as normal ?


This would be amazing if i could get it to work on my Kross 2 ! Smile

Regards,

Gary.
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castorex
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Joined: 06 Jun 2014
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody makes use of this because
1) loading samples take a very very... very long time
2) limited to 8MB Laughing
3) convert samples to 8bit Rolling Eyes
4) writing a NOR Flash component repetitively reduces is lifetime drastically !
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dfahrner
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Bend, OR

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: loading samples into Kross Reply with quote

beerbelly46 wrote:
Hi,
Are you using a kross 1 or kross 2 to try this ?

Also ,do you have to hold any buttons down when switching the kross on ? or just turn it on as normal ?

This would be amazing if i could get it to work on my Kross 2 ! :-)

Regards, Gary.


I'm using a Kross 1...I don't know if the Kross 2 can load new sample .IMG files...on the K1, the samples are loaded from an SD card at boot-up, no button pushing required...

I can send you the .IMG files to try to load on your K2 (send me a PM)...you'll be the first to try it on the new model...

df
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dfahrner
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Bend, OR

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

castorex wrote:
Nobody makes use of this because:

1) loading samples take a very very... very long time

Loading samples from an SD card on the Kross1 adds maybe 10 seconds to the boot time...

castorex wrote:
2) limited to 8MB :lol:

The Kross1 can load 16MB of samples - .they are compressed to make an 8MB .IMG file, but...

castorex wrote:
3) convert samples to 8bit :roll:

...the compression algorithm is pretty good - samples are compressed to 8-bit, but I can't tell any difference when 16-bit Kronos samples are played back on the Kross1...

castorex wrote:
4) writing a NOR Flash component repetitively reduces is lifetime drastically !

The samples are not written to Kross1 internal FLASH, since they're not available if you remove the SD card...
_____

There's no official documentation about Kross1 sample loading, so my comments above are what I've been able to figure out from various online postings, and from my own experience...the reason that nobody uses this capability is probably that it's not supported officially by Korg, and you have to used two fairly complex 3rd-party programs, with minimal documentation...when you finally figure out how to do it, though, it works well...

df
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castorex
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Joined: 06 Jun 2014
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dfahrner you are wrong... you speak about playing wav file from SD card.
Here the problem is to load waveforms into the flash memory (undocumented function) to create tone using these waveforms.

Kross 1 has 8MB available for this... and only 8MB. You load 16bit sample in the tool which convert them into 8bit sample... so 16MB sample => 8MB sample. Kross 1 cannot load 16MB, but a 16Mb/16bit sample converted into 8MB/8bit

Loading the 8MB IMG file takes many time... several long minutes during the boot process.

Converting 16bit to 8bit give a correct result it is true... but I can hear the difference when the source is a true 16bit sample (SF2 or everything else). Samples from the Kronos are certainly compressed samples... not true 16 bit waveform.

I cannot understand what you said about the SD card... this is only true for playing WAV file in the Kross 1, or for the kross 2 for loading WAV file associated to PADs into the dedicated RAM at startup.
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dfahrner
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Bend, OR

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Castorex's comments made me go back and look at Kross sample loading again - I didn't think I was all that wrong about things, but I haven't done any of this for about 6 months...

(1) Castorex is right that the Kross can only load 8MB of sample memory, and that is 8MB of 16-bit samples compressed to 8-bit samples, in a 8MB .IMG file...(I had things mixed up with Kromatic and the Krome, which loads 16MB of 16-bit samples, also compressed, I think, into a 16MB sample file...maybe I was thinking that 8MB of 16-bit samples is 16MBs on your PC?...nothing confusing about this...)

(2) The first time the Kross loads a .IMG sample file from an SD card at boot, it does take about 90 seconds, but subsequently, if you leave that same SD card in place, load time at boot is only about 14 seconds...if you remove the SD card, the samples are unavailable, but if you replace that same SD card, the boot time is that same 14 seconds, and the samples are available again...if you install a different SD card, with a different .IMG file, the first time the Kross boots, the sample load time is long again, but subsequent boots with the new card are short...

The long boot time the first time new samples are loaded suggests that they are in fact being written into internal FLASH memory, but if they are already in FLASH, why aren't they available even if the SD card is removed, and why is there any delay on subsequent boots with the SD card installed? Verification? Only Korg knows...

(3) Modern FLASH memory devices are good for anywhere from many thousands to hundreds of thousands of erase - write cycles (NOR devices, up to a million), so I don't think this will be a problem for Kross users, who will typically only change their user samples occasionally...again, only Korg knows...

(4) Castorex has better ears than I do (I’m one of them old musicians) if he hears any significant difference between 16-bit source and 8-bit compressed Kross waveforms...

...and I wasn't talking about .wav file playback at all, I've never tried that on the Kross...
_____

Again, there's no official documentation of this function, so we're all sort of shooting in the dark when it comes to loading user samples into the Kross...but as I've posted here a number of times, it works pretty well, once you figure out all of the complexities, and I'm surprised that more of the tech-savvy Kross owners (there must be a number of them) haven't done this...

df
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castorex
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Joined: 06 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you are right and I am certainly wrong.

I have tested this function many times when I had the kross1... with several krome IMG files converted to kross IMG files, IMG files for KROSS, and original IMG files built from SF2 files (a very long task).

We certainly have different Kross, because mine loads IMG file (the first time) in several minutes (more than 90s)...and next boots take normal time. Perhaps the Kross OS checks for the IMG file in the SDcard, but it is impossible that the samples are used from the SD card.
The purpose of NOR flash is for direct memory access from CPU (or DSP)... it is impossible to have direct memory access to SD card data... streaming is impossible on this generation of DSP (M50/Triton architecture). It explains the choice of NOR flash and not for inexpensive NAND component (as in SD card).
So IMG is flashed into NOR flash memory. There is no discussion about this. If you look at Kross mainboard you can see a big DSP (same family of the M50, but new revision), flash component, a very powerless arm processor and some RAM (there are some photos through Google).

And I can say that the difference of quality between an SF2 16 bit mono sample and the result after Kross conversion is real ! My ears are not very young too.
If you are using Kronos sample based on similar compression, the difference is certainly very low. It doesn't mean that your ears are bad, or that Kronos samples are bad (Shocked )... but the compression is not lossless, I can confirm Wink

And if we consider that kross is a low cost product, and a Korg product, I can have some doubts about the quality of the NOR component... but you are right the risk is also very low for occasional flash process.

But playing with IMG files for 8 poor MB is a real geek game!
I just regret that Korg never provides new large sample banks (128MB) for the Kross2, and some software to edit user sound and/or to manage user multisample on a computer. It could be transformed the Kross2 in a killer machine (even if based on very old technology).
Anyway the Kross 1 is always a very good machine...

But there is a thing I never understood on Kross (1 or 2). Why they put 16 buttons/pads on it to do so few things ???
The buttons/pads have three mode: sample, pattern editor, Favorites... but 3 exclusive modes. I can understand for pattern editor mode, but it will be more functional to have only an EVENT mode where each button/pad would be edit individually: favorite, sample, (un)mute track, user event (real time parameter ON/OFF or Value, Midi Event)... only Korg knows (or the internship student who codes the interface Laughing ) ?
And there are 8MB available on the flash memory to provide this feature... I would have preferred these 8Mb have been use to extend the firmware than for loading sample (on the Kross 1) Cool
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dfahrner
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Bend, OR

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and it looks like Korg just released an update and editor for the Kross 2 that solves all of these sample load problems:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=114170

...and we Kross 1 owners are out of luck, I guess...but we still have a pretty good (legacy) instrument that can load a few new samples if needed...

df
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castorex
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Joined: 06 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are kross1 users out of luck ? You have an editor and an unofficial function for loading some (tiny) samples yet...

But good news for Kross 2 users... and this can change my mind... if I can find a second hand at a good price (the official price is really too high).
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dfahrner
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 569
Location: Bend, OR

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

castorex wrote:
Why are kross1 users out of luck ? You have an editor and an unofficial function for loading some (tiny) samples yet...

...because we Kross1 users don't get the improved user sample features...as somebody (?) wrote a few days ago: "...playing with IMG files for 8 poor MB is a real geek game!"...
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