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KP3 Sync Failure
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Spheric El
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Joined: 21 Jul 2014
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Location: Liverpool

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks TheHighestTree for clarification .
It seemed the thread was splitt and some users had success. It may just be situational use.
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VladiKuz



Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thehighesttree wrote:
...It's never something I've had to rely on for more than transitional stuff, but if it's an issue you can try holding Shift and hitting the BPM button on your material's 1-beat every 16 bars or so to force the sample back on track.


What exactly is meant by the words "holding Shift and hitting the BPM button"? Korg KP3 does not have a button "BTM" (there is an "Auto BPM" button, but it does not work in combination with SHIFT).
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Spheric El
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theres a tap tempo button.
If you shift and hit this it will realign the loops to their initial staring pionts, ie from when the sample button ,then bank were originally pressed..so you can retrigger all samples from this point.
Not so useful if you have 4 loops all synced with different start points because it will re jig the phase of your loops ,changing their sync relative to each other.
It's ok if all loops roughly start on the down beat and then useful for re syncing to other music in live situations.
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DJElectricDaddy



Joined: 29 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to jump in on a somewhat old thread, but I HAVE to throw my two pence in here. Most of the info posted here is either flat out wrong or just misleading. Statements to the tune of using no MIDI to keep machines in sync, or that there is some kind of fundamental difference between audio and MIDI looping are just plain idiotic. Iím reading this thread going batshit crazy.

I agree with the OPs frustration. This should be utterly basic. Sync is sync. There no grey area, no ambiguity. It comes down to nothing more than basic math. And itís incontrovertible.

At any given BPM, 4 bars is a n EXACT measure of time. Which is why itís called a measure. In audio sampling terms, at any given BPM 4 bars add up to an absolute number of samples. Therefore given that 4 bars is 4 bars, every day of the week, whether itís piano drums or a sample of me banging my head against the wall, it all adds up to the SAME NUMBER. there no ambiguity here.

So 4 bars at 60bpm equals 16 seconds. On the money. No ifs and buts. Itís basic math. And it should be 16 seconds at the start of the song, and it should be 16 seconds 10 mins into the song. This is a computer weíre talking about. Itís a giant calculator that does one thing - crunch numbers.

Assuming the internal sampling rate of the Kaoss line is 44100/16 then again, itís hard math that 4 bars at 60bpm will result in x number of samples. Every time. Itís bits and bytes. Again, no ambiguity here.

The fact that many people suffer sync drift with these Kaoss products points only to the dreadful implementation by Korg, and absolutely no attempt to ever fix it.

And before one of you pompous arses chimes in with how you have to be expert at punching in on the quarter note, go back to the top and read again. Loop start timing has zero, nada, nothing to do with drift. If Iím a millisecond late punching in with my loop, then pure math dictates that I will be a millisecond late EVERY time through the loop. Thereís no scientific reason a loop should begin in sync with another loop, or another outboard gear, and after a length of time it be out of sync.

Itís shoddy programming and implementation by Korg.

I doubt at this stage there is any fix for it. One surely would have emerged by now if there were. I will look into the USB solution but from my experience of using the KO1PRO with Cubase that the USB connection is even more flaky than the MIDI.

As a stand-alone bit of gear the Kaoss line are brilliant fun. Itís a crying shame that they were not given the due attention to detail to make them top notch. They just donít play well with other bits of gear. I donít know any real musicians that use only one bit of gear in isolation. Everything needs to work with everything else. Thatís the whole point of MIDI. If youíre gonna put MIDI and Ext sync capabilities on a machine, bloody hell at least make them work.

Itís been a long rant I know. To close up I will summarize a few use cases where I have tried to use my KO1PRO in my live rig with terrible sync results.

Manual tempo sync
On my CS1x I set the arpeggio rate to a given BPM, which is then manually set on the KO1PRO. Sync drifts after 8 bars or less. Setting the tempo on the KO1PRO to about 0.4 - 0.6 bpm LESS than the arp tempo keeps it in sync for longer, but drift eventually sets in. I have spent HOURS trying to find a consistent recipe to manually keeping sync between the two synths. It was differences every time.

Using KO1PRO as master clock
MIDI out from the kaossilator to the CS1x keeps the arpeggiator in tight sync for about 5 mins. Eventually drift sets in until they are completely out of sync and the song is a train wreck. Even with the KO1PRO as master clock it canít keep sync with itself, as it loses sync with both recorded banks AND shift-hold drum patterns or gated synth

Using KO1PRO as slave to Beatstep
Adding a solid reliable clock source like the Beatstep to my rig did not cure the kaossilator sync drift. Same results. MIDI sent from Beatstep to CS1x, then MDI THRU to KO1PRO and also to ipad synths. Beatstep sequence plays all synths in time, and keeps the arp rate locked. Only gear that loses sync, be it with recorded banks or live patterns, is the KO1PRO.

I know this rant has focused on the Kaossilator Pro, but the principles of math are no different than those that dictate the timing on the KP3. Itís obvious Korg short changed its products and ultimately its users. Iíve never seen any complaints about sync with the Volcas. I was all set to sell of my kaossilator and trade in for a volca, but Iím not so sure Korg deserves any more of my money

Cheers
Djed
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megamarkd
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Joined: 15 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counting samples bits is something I used to do with my e4000 ultra, and still it would end up drifting if I just let the samples loop and didn't retrigger. My MV8000 also drifts if the samples are not retriggered. Yes, the maths of bar lengths at different rates is solid, but have you considered that timing for many different reasons can fluctuate and bring in drift and jitter? Pull up a hardware monitor on your desktop computer and check the realtime clock speed of your CPU for a bit of fun. Home computer CPU's have loads of jitter.

It's a shame that the KP's/KO's never made it to Innerclock's Litmus Test page before the company shut down, but the page is still up at least and is a good place to see that very little runs with perfect timing. I'd love it if Korg were to fix the timing with a firmware update, if indeed it is that simple, though the last firmware update for the KP3+ was back in 2016.....

ICS Litmus Test Page: http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20ICS%20Litmus.html
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DJElectricDaddy



Joined: 29 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that may well be the case with the recorded banks of loops. Slight fluctuations in electricity may affect the timing of the playback. I thought about a furman power conditioner for the KO but I really doubt that it has as much to do with that as poor product.

It also doesnít account for the bad timing with the non-audio synth playback; the gate speed, the drum pattern tempo, the arped synths. All of those are midi controlled and not Ďsamplesí until recorded to banks. All of that performance should stay locked in tempo.

Thatís WHY we have midi clock sync, to account for small fluctuations in power and differences in electrical components. Thatís the point of clock, so the 1 is always the 1. The + of 2 is always the + of 2. And when one module in the chain sends a signal for beat 1, all other modules follow suit.

I thought maybe the length of a midi cable might be a factor, so to rule it out I went and bought new 2 foot cables and reconnected my gear closer together. Made no difference. And why would it, in big studios gear is pread out across several rooms often times.

Iím wondering if the PLUS version was improved. Iím using the original model, and there are many users who have no issue at all, and many who have the exact same issue. Could the difference be the later model? Can anyone chime in to clarify what model they are using. Other than that I recon itís just a bad batch of capacitors or something that hinders a few older machines. No other explanation
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I thought the KP3 was the +..... I have a KP3+ and have only ever had issues with sample drift, no other sync drift. Admittedly I don't use the percussion presets.
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DJElectricDaddy



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím not too familiar with the KP3, but yeah there is a slightly updated version that got named the + version. Not sure what the differences are, but if you experience drift on your KP3+ then it doesnít sound like it was fixed.

I did play around with using Abelton Link on my iPad to serve master clock and that seemed to hold up better. Iíll test that out some more and report back
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah no diff between the Kaos Pad Pro/3/3+. They are all the same, come in the same box and have the same case and guts. I'm finally understanding all this issue about "drift" and I'm thinking it all stems from the constant looping mode for the samples and possibly crappy tempo assignment functionality (dunno why I had to read the manual to actually understand the thread).
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