 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:26 pm Post subject: The 7 Habits Of Highly Creative People- applicable to Kronos |
 |
|
https://artplusmarketing.com/the-7-habits-of-highly-creative-people-6cfe6471af31
1) 1. Steal Like An Artist
There is a truth that the aspiring creative must first recognise.
“What a good artist understands is that nothing comes from nowhere. All creative work builds on what came before. Nothing is completely original.”
2. Always Be Researching
3. Enter New Domains
4. Be More Prolific
5. Give Yourself Permission To Suck ( my favorite)
6. Embrace Constraints
7. Develop Your Ritual
Creativity doesn’t come easily. ( speak for your yourself, buddy  )
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think there are few( at least) very creative musicians on this forum.
This art we create tends to be driven from deep inside, so its often personal.
Not easy to discuss. Especially if one is introverted.
Nothing wrong with that but I don't believe we should isolate.
I think its better to put it out there.
anyway, lets deconstruct 1. :
"The good artist emulates the style of another as closely as he can. The great artist selects elements from others’ work and incorporates them into his own mix of influences. He does so tastefully, knowing that the right fusion will create something that is uniquely his, although not completely original."
This paragraph is somewhat half right. I am mostly unconscious when I create. I have several strange musical accidents that spontaneously occur. Or half the idea comes thru the fingers and the other half is rattling around upstairs looking to escape.
The above paragraph suggests the creator or artist is more conscious and systematically mixing it up. I don't believe its always this clinical.
I do agree with ' the right fusion,,, uniquely his ( and hers)" Thats the end result.
Give 1. some thought, if you can.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KK
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 1422
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
There is no universal recipe for creativity. What the person you refer to here mentions might work for him, but it won't for others or only partially.
I agree about the hard work parts, but to steal ideas from others will inevitably make so-called creations sound like what you are copying. If one constantly listens to and practices a given style of music or a particular artist, one's ideas will of course reflect the same and inevitably sound alike. And of course many famous people do/did that a lot, often for monetary reasons. It's part of the music industry, nevertheless true master composers from all eras created masterworks out of nothing without stealing ideas from others. This is how music truly progressed.
The guy in the article you mention is IMHO too obsessed with quantity. Quality work, great compositions and even inventions which has nothing to do with music don't necessarily need obsessive work or repeating patterns or routines. They can come from true inspiration, disconnected to a various degree or even completely from other people ideas or influences.
So IMHO hard work is probably a quite common point, but the recipe to achieve one's best can differ totally from one person to the next. YMMV |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gunnar
Full Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 185
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:13 am Post subject: Re: The 7 Habits Of Highly Creative People- applicable to Kr |
|
|
Hi GregC, nice discussion topic
This turned into a lengthy post, sorry about that, skip if you're too busy :p
| GregC wrote: |
1) 1. Steal Like An Artist
|
Yes, agree, but I would be a bit cautious with the word "steal" as it is somewhat loaded... What I mean is.. By stealing, one tends to imply taking something as is and running with it, which is not what we strive for. But what happens is that we are greatly influenced by those that came before us and the music we listen to on a daily basis and also by the patterns we're practicing and the sounds we use.
For my own sake, I know I picked up a lot of tricks from artists that I listen to, but I hope that I don't at the end sound like any one of them..
So.. I would perhaps phrase this more "Allow yourself to be influenced and inspired by.."
| GregC wrote: |
2. Always Be Researching
3. Enter New Domains
|
Yeah, goes almost without saying. If you stop exploring, you'll stagnate.
| GregC wrote: |
4. Be More Prolific
|
I don't know about this one.. The author suggests that we cannot decide which idea will catch on, so chug out as many ideas as possible with the end goal that some of them will eventually catch on.
My angle would be: I tend to have plenty melody/rhythmic ideas floating around in my head. For instance, I often use the Voice Memo app on my phone to record a tune I'm humming or record a few bars from the piano, just to "store" it somewhere. Most of that never goes anywhere. But once I have some concept to work with, I can start to sort a few of those ideas into something that resembles a song, and usually while doing that a few other ideas pop up as well, as one theme leads to another and so forth.. And at some point, this always happens, I'll hit some part of the song that just doesn't work.. At this point, I should according to the article, just chug it out and move on.. I don't though.. I stay at it and try variations until, eventually, I give up and remove that part and the idea goes back into the pool of unused ideas, or I come up with something that makes it work and then I can move on with the song. This process may take weeks (of real-time, I don't get to sit down and play every day), but at least at the end of it, I would have been thorough and I have a result I can be proud of.
| GregC wrote: |
5. Give Yourself Permission To Suck ( my favorite)
|
Yeah, "be yourself, do what you do, and be proud of it"
| GregC wrote: |
6. Embrace Constraints
|
Indeed..
For me, this really became clear when I, some 10 years ago now, started to record in GarageBand. It was very restrictive and didn't side track me with loads of options and tweaks and stuff to do. I've long since ditched GarageBand, but its simplistic nature made me overcome quite a few hurdles
And I still have a few constraints that I use to guide me (and I occasionally break them)
(btw, about constraints made me think of the film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Obstructions. A good example of how constraints can make to produce wonderful results)
| GregC wrote: |
7. Develop Your Ritual
Creativity doesn’t come easily. ( speak for your yourself, buddy ) |
I'm happy that you have you're muse readily available at all times, Greg!
One of the quotes in the article is "If you hang in there, you will get somewhere." which I like. There are ups and downs, but if you keep at it, you'll get there.
Another point I would make is about distractions. There are practical distractions like too many options in the interface, too many sounds to pick from, too many settings, too much clutter in the studio (though I suppose this is a source of great inspiration for some). There is also the psychological distraction, you need time to sit and play, you need energy to be creative and you need to not have your brain troubled with subjects from work or issues with friends and family..
When one is able to identify the distractions that work against you, and you manage to remove or limit them, then that greatly helps the process. For me, a big step was 1. to get the Kronos which gives me the expression that I've lacked for a long while, and 2. not working in the evenings, and 3. the kids don't need constant attention 
| GregC wrote: |
I am mostly unconscious when I create. I have several strange musical accidents that spontaneously occur. Or half the idea comes thru the fingers and the other half is rattling around upstairs looking to escape.
The above paragraph suggests the creator or artist is more conscious and systematically mixing it up. I don't believe its always this clinical.
|
I agree with you about it not being a conscious process. This is also why I think "influenced" is a more accurate term that "steal", because we're being nudged in various directions by things around us, and that pops out as ideas and melodies and patterns and phrases.
I've had the same experience as you plenty of times. I'm playing along with something and then I accidentally hit a few wrong notes and go "woah, that sounded nice". Other times I'm out walking and wonder "what would it sound like if I did this combined with that" and then I try that and some times it works, some times it doesn't. Point is, it comes from a lot of different places, but rarely is it a perfect plan which gets flawlessly executed
Anyway, an interesting topic
_________________
Gear: Korg Kronos 2 73, Arturia Microbrute & MiniBrute 2, Moog Mother-32, Ibanez RG320DXFM Guitar, ESP Viper 254FM Bass, Blackstar HT-1
Software: Reaper, EZ Drummer
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/gunnarsletta |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arne v
Full Member
Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 195
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GregC wrote: |
I think there are few( at least) very creative musicians on this forum.
|
i totally agree 
| GregC wrote: |
I am mostly unconscious when I create. I have several strange musical accidents that spontaneously occur.
|
lol..its like me when i get in my "bubble" stuff seems to happen. Suddenly i can play a theme while thinking about other things like the piano on #wish i was talking to my son while he was playing his guitar when it appeared or if im looking for a specific sound and not finding it it usually presents itself. Its like the pieces fall together
This is what i love when doing music and try to teach my son when he is playing his guitar. If he enters the "bubble" stuff will happen
Imho i think we are just tapping into a level of consciousness where its all stored
regards avr
_________________
https://soundcloud.com/bob-frode |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mm-pro
Full Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Portland, Maine USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
In regards to number five, I like to think of it a bit differently.
I call it turning off the critic.
I find that I need to separate the creative process from the critical process. The little voice that says “this sucks” will prevent you from finishing anything. For me it is important to turn off that voice and take an idea to completion before critique. Usually I will find when it comes time to critically assess the music I have created that it is actually good or I will find that I don’t like it. The funny thing is, often if I revisit the same music a year later, I will like it. I think often our creative side is a bit further advanced than our taste (and the critic) at the moment we create something new. This is a second reason not to listen to that voice.
Turning off the critic has helped me immensely. The critic always told me what I was making sucked and so then there was never a reason to finish it. Now, I make things and complete them and have a body of work as a result.
_________________
Korg Gear: (2) Kronos, PS3100, (2) MaxiKorg, PE1000, Z1Ex, MS20M,(2) OASYS-PCI, Synthe Pedal, Wavedrum WD-1, Prophecy, SQ1, 2600FS, M3M |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KK wrote: | There is no universal recipe for creativity. What the person you refer to here mentions might work for him, but it won't for others or only partially.
I agree about the hard work parts, but to steal ideas from others will inevitably make so-called creations sound like what you are copying. If one constantly listens to and practices a given style of music or a particular artist, one's ideas will of course reflect the same and inevitably sound alike. And of course many famous people do/did that a lot, often for monetary reasons. It's part of the music industry, nevertheless true master composers from all eras created masterworks out of nothing without stealing ideas from others. This is how music truly progressed.
The guy in the article you mention is IMHO too obsessed with quantity. Quality work, great compositions and even inventions which has nothing to do with music don't necessarily need obsessive work or repeating patterns or routines. They can come from true inspiration, disconnected to a various degree or even completely from other people ideas or influences.
So IMHO hard work is probably a quite common point, but the recipe to achieve one's best can differ totally from one person to the next. YMMV |
all your points/observations are solid. I have been saying for weeks
that Quantity does not equal Quality, in a prior topic here. Us old dogs
say stuff like that.
Authors 7. is about doing the work. Thats huge. Here's a snip:
"But one must do the work, no matter how difficult.
Just remember Chuck Close’s last line — if you hang in there, you will get somewhere."
As we pursue our music passion with Kronos, I think we go deeper and deeper, beating down whatever challenge. Its a crooked road for me. and I am the turtle
on the crooked road.
For example, I have a new song in the works. There is a 12 measure part , a 1 minute long bridge that I am slogging on, spending 2 hours a day for the past 3 days. Its tedious, to work it out, but I am the determined turtle.
I think all of us creative song writers work hard at our craft. We put the time and effort into it. My wife calls me obsessed. Thats stating the obvious
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: The 7 Habits Of Highly Creative People- applicable to Kr |
|
|
| Gunnar wrote: | Hi GregC, nice discussion topic
This turned into a lengthy post, sorry about that, skip if you're too busy :p
| GregC wrote: |
1) 1. Steal Like An Artist
|
Yes, agree, but I would be a bit cautious with the word "steal" as it is somewhat loaded... What I mean is.. By stealing, one tends to imply taking something as is and running with it, which is not what we strive for. But what happens is that we are greatly influenced by those that came before us and the music we listen to on a daily basis and also by the patterns we're practicing and the sounds we use.
For my own sake, I know I picked up a lot of tricks from artists that I listen to, but I hope that I don't at the end sound like any one of them..
So.. I would perhaps phrase this more "Allow yourself to be influenced and inspired by.."
| GregC wrote: |
2. Always Be Researching
3. Enter New Domains
|
Yeah, goes almost without saying. If you stop exploring, you'll stagnate.
| GregC wrote: |
4. Be More Prolific
|
I don't know about this one.. The author suggests that we cannot decide which idea will catch on, so chug out as many ideas as possible with the end goal that some of them will eventually catch on.
My angle would be: I tend to have plenty melody/rhythmic ideas floating around in my head. For instance, I often use the Voice Memo app on my phone to record a tune I'm humming or record a few bars from the piano, just to "store" it somewhere. Most of that never goes anywhere. But once I have some concept to work with, I can start to sort a few of those ideas into something that resembles a song, and usually while doing that a few other ideas pop up as well, as one theme leads to another and so forth.. And at some point, this always happens, I'll hit some part of the song that just doesn't work.. At this point, I should according to the article, just chug it out and move on.. I don't though.. I stay at it and try variations until, eventually, I give up and remove that part and the idea goes back into the pool of unused ideas, or I come up with something that makes it work and then I can move on with the song. This process may take weeks (of real-time, I don't get to sit down and play every day), but at least at the end of it, I would have been thorough and I have a result I can be proud of.
| GregC wrote: |
5. Give Yourself Permission To Suck ( my favorite)
|
Yeah, "be yourself, do what you do, and be proud of it"
| GregC wrote: |
6. Embrace Constraints
|
Indeed..
For me, this really became clear when I, some 10 years ago now, started to record in GarageBand. It was very restrictive and didn't side track me with loads of options and tweaks and stuff to do. I've long since ditched GarageBand, but its simplistic nature made me overcome quite a few hurdles
And I still have a few constraints that I use to guide me (and I occasionally break them)
(btw, about constraints made me think of the film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Obstructions. A good example of how constraints can make to produce wonderful results)
| GregC wrote: |
7. Develop Your Ritual
Creativity doesn’t come easily. ( speak for your yourself, buddy ) |
I'm happy that you have you're muse readily available at all times, Greg!
One of the quotes in the article is "If you hang in there, you will get somewhere." which I like. There are ups and downs, but if you keep at it, you'll get there.
Another point I would make is about distractions. There are practical distractions like too many options in the interface, too many sounds to pick from, too many settings, too much clutter in the studio (though I suppose this is a source of great inspiration for some). There is also the psychological distraction, you need time to sit and play, you need energy to be creative and you need to not have your brain troubled with subjects from work or issues with friends and family..
When one is able to identify the distractions that work against you, and you manage to remove or limit them, then that greatly helps the process. For me, a big step was 1. to get the Kronos which gives me the expression that I've lacked for a long while, and 2. not working in the evenings, and 3. the kids don't need constant attention
| GregC wrote: |
I am mostly unconscious when I create. I have several strange musical accidents that spontaneously occur. Or half the idea comes thru the fingers and the other half is rattling around upstairs looking to escape.
The above paragraph suggests the creator or artist is more conscious and systematically mixing it up. I don't believe its always this clinical.
|
I agree with you about it not being a conscious process. This is also why I think "influenced" is a more accurate term that "steal", because we're being nudged in various directions by things around us, and that pops out as ideas and melodies and patterns and phrases.
I've had the same experience as you plenty of times. I'm playing along with something and then I accidentally hit a few wrong notes and go "woah, that sounded nice". Other times I'm out walking and wonder "what would it sound like if I did this combined with that" and then I try that and some times it works, some times it doesn't. Point is, it comes from a lot of different places, but rarely is it a perfect plan which gets flawlessly executed
Anyway, an interesting topic |
Hey Gunnar, thank you for your thoughtful post.
I agree, I didn't like the authors ploy (1) about stealing. Or agree with it. I dismissed that to the author being provocative or controversial.
4) chugging out junk. Thats bad advice by the author. I would not waste anyone's time with obvious trial balloons. But thats me.
When I get a song into draft form, such as 60% complete, I have a few friends
review the 2-3 minute draft. A local Kronos friend called it my ' jury trial '.
Even if my song draft is a dud, I archive it for another try in a year. I once had a original song that was an ugly duckling. A year later, it became a beautiful swan.
4) Prolific. I am single minded when creating. I work 95% of my time on the 1 song. If I scatter 10 song ideas around, I would never complete anything.
Each song is a project ( once its past draft approval) . For me, that song could take another week or even 2. I allow myself the latitude to take whatever time I need. I have wasted 1 day or 2 days or more with this process. But I refuse to let that bother me.
Important to me, I have disciplined myself to 'finish ' the Song. Even so, I don't have any problem going back for a tweak here or there , a few months later.
Being adaptable has supported my learning and creation.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
19naia
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 1216
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have woken from dreams where i was listening to music i never heard before.
Wiped the drool off my face and stumbled over to the keyboard to see if i could emulate it before the fog of the waking world drowned out any memory of the dream music.
Sometimes i had no keys of my own and woke up from a dream of new music. Then found myself randomly composing a new song weeks or months later with no memory of the music filled dream, until after the composition had taken enough shape to identify its true sound which ended up sounding like what i recalled in my dream.
I also had a dream of new music that i forgot about until i stumbled across a new band pounding it out on the streets with belly dancers, guys in skirts/kilts and all. I heard the music and recalled parts of it from my dream. Even recalled one of the belly dancers staring me down -while she squirmed her curves to the beat. I eventually ended up with a bit of that influence in my music.
I had music dreams before i bought my kronos or knew i would buy it. I walked into a instrument rental store weeks later to rent a roland 88 keys for practice before i left the country again for extended absence. They refused me and my good credit because i had an out of state license.
So i asked myself what i was doing and what i really wanted. I said to me, i have been wanting a kronos for years and i am busy banging heads over an outdated Roland digital piano.
So i went to GC and poured out thousands of bucks, and decided to just please myself just the way i wanted. After my first few weeks on Kronos, i had a song composed that was clearly from a dream weeks before i got Kronos or even knew i would have kronos. I was putting it off and going for an outdate roland rental for a few months.
I travel a lot without keys and my Kronos sits in storage half the year while i fly to stay out of the country. The other 6 months i drive with it to Mexico to hang out by the beach for winter escape to coconut trees under the sun. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="arne v"] | GregC wrote: |
| GregC wrote: |
I am mostly unconscious when I create. I have several strange musical accidents that spontaneously occur.
|
lol..its like me when i get in my "bubble" stuff seems to happen. Suddenly i can play a theme while thinking about other things like the piano on #wish i was talking to my son while he was playing his guitar when it appeared or if im looking for a specific sound and not finding it it usually presents itself. Its like the pieces fall together
This is what i love when doing music and try to teach my son when he is playing his guitar. If he enters the "bubble" stuff will happen
Imho i think we are just tapping into a level of consciousness where its all stored
regards avr |
I really like that- tapping into a level of consciousness. Us musicians/song writers can get behind this.
and it is such a cool experience.
For example, I had a creative surge with a new song. Something that was half way thru, before today, in terms of structure/ideas.
2 hours flew by as I completed the final half.
its possible, that there is stuff that is not going to stick as I defer to the good judgement of my ' jury trial ' on a new song draft.
I also experiment with new instruments, new in that the instrument has not been used in my prior originals. for example, oboe is taking on melody parts .
I like the playful character of oboe.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kronoSphere
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Posts: 696
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sometimes when I feel like blocked in the middle of a new song that I write and work on, I just clear completely the chord structures that
I had already written under the melodic line and I write radically other harmonies under that melodic line. And suddenly the sunny road opens !
Another thing I often use now is to shift slighty the tempo of the words sung against the rhythm of the song. In fact building several slightly different rythmic layers to render the voice more airy.
Things change ! 
_________________
trees are going fast.
https://www.lairdeparis.fr
Current Gear : Kronos 88 / Seaboard Rise / Triton Extreme / Sequoia / Motif Rack XS / TC Helicon voicelive rack /Awave 11 / Audio & VSTi plug-ins connected /wide touchscreen / iPad Pro 512. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kronoSphere wrote: | Sometimes when I feel like blocked in the middle of a new song that I write and work on, I just clear completely the chord structures that
I had already written under the melodic line and I write radically other harmonies under that melodic line. And suddenly the sunny road opens !
Another thing I often use now is to shift slighty the tempo of the words sung against the rhythm of the song. In fact building several slightly different rythmic layers to render the voice more airy.
Things change ! |
those are good ideas. I often take a break when a new song is 50% complete.
For my stuff, that halfway mark is often a transition to a bridge , a brief solo passage, etc.
In order to approach that transition, i will wait until the next day, with a refreshed start.
Or go outside for a run or a bike ride. Taking a complete break for 45 minutes is often good for a new or fresh creative/mental approach.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
holdsg
Full Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 229
Location: Alta Loma, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm just trying to suck a little less than yesterday, every day.
_________________
Bass and keyboard player, not usually at the same time, but sometimes in the same song!
Boards: Kronos 2, and Hammond SK1
Basses: Fender, G&L |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arne v
Full Member
Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 195
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| holdsg wrote: | | I'm just trying to suck a little less than yesterday, every day. |
dont be to hard on yourself
What matters is what your music does to you. Its like when my son see some 13 year old kid on youtube who plays guitar 150 miles an hour i tell him there will always be someone better than you, but whats important is what you do with your music. If you put your soul into it magic will happen
take the rolling stones, i would say imho they suck compared to many other musicians, but they make great music
regards arne v
_________________
https://soundcloud.com/bob-frode |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
runningman67
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 1663
Location: Manchester UK
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think all us budding songwriters can relate to this......
It's a 'happening'. You get noodling, something sticks, then it grows, then it's done.
Then you play it back and you may even like it, then you think, where the hell did that come from.........and that is so satisfying.
_________________
https://m.youtube.com/user/1967runningman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
