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Retriggering the envelope on each key press?

 
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Fluent



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:14 am    Post subject: Retriggering the envelope on each key press? Reply with quote

Hey. I've tried the different configurations with the outputs and inputs on the back of the Odyssey and can't seem to figure it out. Is there any way on the module version to make it re-trigger the envelope after each key press? It seems that the envelope will re-trigger only when the whole envelope has gone through, i.e. once the release is over it will retrigger. Is there an easy way to alter this behavior? I don't remember the Axxe being this way, but of course that was a monophonic synth, not duophonic.

Any tips on this? Thanks in advance, - J
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slug
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not sure what is up but it should retrigger envelopes with each key press out of the box. The envelopes are only triggered by key gate, trig or LFO, so maybe with no cables in CV trig etc make sure you have the appropriate envelope set to key gate?
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Fluent



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slug wrote:
Im not sure what is up but it should retrigger envelopes with each key press out of the box. The envelopes are only triggered by key gate, trig or LFO, so maybe with no cables in CV trig etc make sure you have the appropriate envelope set to key gate?


Thanks for the response. It seems I do have the Odyssey set up correctly, the envelopes are set to KYBD GATE. Just to be clear, let's say I have a slow-building string sound with a long attack. When I press the first key, it slowly builds up as it should, but if I press another note, it acts as though the envelope's attack time is set to zero, i.e. it has no attack at all. Only if I play by releasing the previous key before pressing the next one does it seem to retrigger when I press the next note.

Edit - And even then it doesn't always work, i.e. even if you let go of the previous key the new note may sound with zero attack.

Is that normal behavior for the Odyssey? I remember playing the Axxe some years back (had an Odyssey too but it was too damaged to use much), and I don't recall the Axxe behaving this way. Does it have something to do with the duophony or do I have a faulty unit?

Edit - And a bit off-topic while I'm at it. My Odyssey still has this weird phasing issue. Another thing I don't remember it having from back in the day. When the 2 oscillators are in tune it sounds as though the synth is being played through a rotary speaker, i.e. the combined sound in phasing slowly in and out, unaffected by LFO speed or anything like that. It gives a weird effect especially when playing a quicker line, as the bass harmonics phase in and out almost like a sample & hold applied to the filter, lol. Weird. Is that also normal? KORG hasn't really given me a great answer on that yet.
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slug
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok sounds like you are talking about an effect just during duophonic mode? I guess the difference is between legato and staccato. IE if you maintain a key press and press a second key to get duophonic, then this is counted as legato, and the envelope will not retrigger because this only happens when played staccato. IE the first played note trigger envelope up to sustain, and then the last note released will perform the envelop release phase. This is because there is only one filter and one envelope available, any more complex operation like you are after require an envelope per voice. I think thats what is up?

As far as tuning goes, i think that its just difficult to get both oscillators perfectly in tune. If you try to tune both oscillators to the same pitch and are getting that effect, and then switch sync on do you still get the phasing sound you hear?

Good luck.
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Fluent



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slug wrote:
Ok sounds like you are talking about an effect just during duophonic mode? I guess the difference is between legato and staccato. IE if you maintain a key press and press a second key to get duophonic, then this is counted as legato, and the envelope will not retrigger because this only happens when played staccato. IE the first played note trigger envelope up to sustain, and then the last note released will perform the envelop release phase. This is because there is only one filter and one envelope available, any more complex operation like you are after require an envelope per voice. I think thats what is up?

As far as tuning goes, i think that its just difficult to get both oscillators perfectly in tune. If you try to tune both oscillators to the same pitch and are getting that effect, and then switch sync on do you still get the phasing sound you hear?

Good luck.


Sync works fine, so I guess it's just a typical oscillator thing then. It does sound a bit weird at times, like when a bassline is playing, i.e. some of the notes sound almost like random harmonics compared to the sound I dialed in, if that makes sense. Guess that is just organic analog right there. Smile

As for the other issue, that sounds like that is what's happening. I wasn't used to it because I played the Axxe more recently, and I don't recall that having the same issue (a 1 oscillator synth, obviously, not duophonic.)

Also, side note, is there an easy image or poster or something I can keep handy that detail how to best use the back panel connectors? I just picked up an Akai Timbre Wolf, dope synth, but I can't seem to do much with its Gate Out to Gate In on the Odyssey. The Odyssey is triggered when the Timbre Wolf's sequencer plays but it just repeats the same note over and over with each pulse. Any way to get it to play the same pitches as the Timbre Wolf without using MIDI? And is there an easy cheat sheet to see how to connect the back panel connectors to get different effects on the Odyssey alone?

Sorry for all the questions but I haven't been able to figure it all out yet. It's cool to talk to someone who knows about them, hah. And thank you for clearing up the other 2 issues. I won't have to worry that my Odyssey is not functioning correctly now. Smile
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mihu



Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recommend reading manuals. Thay may seem boring, but don't bite Wink
There are a few for the Odyssey - Korg's own and original Arp's, but you can learn a lot from others - take a look at Arturia Beat Step Pro or Doepfer Dark Time for example - they cover a lot of useful information. There is also a dedicated site for Korg Odyssey www.arpsynth.com.

A few tips concerning back panel cv i/o:

There are outputs that react to keyboard actions (including those coming from MIDI input):
GATE OUT - 'any key is pressed' - starts when you press first key, stops when you release last key,
TRIG OUT - 'a key has been pressed' - this is a short impulse, should appear with any key press (but there are exceptions - it is omitted when reducing the span between multiple notes while playing legato, at least on mine Kordyssey, I don't have the module),
CV OUT - 'pitch reference voltage in volts/octave' - represents the note to play.

There are inputs controlling synth engine:
GATE IN - 'open/close VCA' - produce output or not,
TRIG IN - 're/start envelopes',
CV IN - 'tune to pitch' - according to this post (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmyfqJUm8gc) it is a TRS input which allows you to control independently both oscillators, but I haven't confirmed that.

Typically you use outputs to control other equipment from Odyssey. Inputs are used to override internal connections, typically to control Odyssey from other equipment. You can connect outputs to inputs within the synth however. This can be used to
- set legato mode - connect gate-out to trig-in (gate-out starts with the first note and stops with the last, so subsequently played notes will not retrigger the envelopes),
- set monophonic mode - connect cv-out to cv-in,
You can also check how the gate-out and trig-out behave by connecting them to cv-in - you will here some clicks - enough to figure it out.

As for the Timbre Wolf - it seems it doesn't have cv-out, so no means of controlling the pitch (you would need a dedicated midi-to-cv interface).

Regards,
Michał
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Fluent



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mihu wrote:
I recommend reading manuals. Thay may seem boring, but don't bite Wink
There are a few for the Odyssey - Korg's own and original Arp's, but you can learn a lot from others - take a look at Arturia Beat Step Pro or Doepfer Dark Time for example - they cover a lot of useful information. There is also a dedicated site for Korg Odyssey www.arpsynth.com.

A few tips concerning back panel cv i/o:

There are outputs that react to keyboard actions (including those coming from MIDI input):
GATE OUT - 'any key is pressed' - starts when you press first key, stops when you release last key,
TRIG OUT - 'a key has been pressed' - this is a short impulse, should appear with any key press (but there are exceptions - it is omitted when reducing the span between multiple notes while playing legato, at least on mine Kordyssey, I don't have the module),
CV OUT - 'pitch reference voltage in volts/octave' - represents the note to play.

There are inputs controlling synth engine:
GATE IN - 'open/close VCA' - produce output or not,
TRIG IN - 're/start envelopes',
CV IN - 'tune to pitch' - according to this post (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmyfqJUm8gc) it is a TRS input which allows you to control independently both oscillators, but I haven't confirmed that.

Typically you use outputs to control other equipment from Odyssey. Inputs are used to override internal connections, typically to control Odyssey from other equipment. You can connect outputs to inputs within the synth however. This can be used to
- set legato mode - connect gate-out to trig-in (gate-out starts with the first note and stops with the last, so subsequently played notes will not retrigger the envelopes),
- set monophonic mode - connect cv-out to cv-in,
You can also check how the gate-out and trig-out behave by connecting them to cv-in - you will here some clicks - enough to figure it out.

As for the Timbre Wolf - it seems it doesn't have cv-out, so no means of controlling the pitch (you would need a dedicated midi-to-cv interface).

Regards,
Michał


Thanks Michal. I actually did read the manual for both the Timbre Wolf and Odyssey, but I was hoping there was a "cheat sheet" I could print out or keep handy for the various "modes" using the CV/TRIG/GATE Ins and Outs on the back panel. I tend to forget the specifics of those connections since I rarely use them, and between those and MIDI (another thing I rarely use) I end up just losing that information in some dark spot of my brain. Smile

The 2 modes you just posted are exactly what I was looking for. Will pin them on a post-it note on the front of my Ody. Smile Thanks for the information. Will have to eventually invest in a merger of some sort so I can sequence the Ody via MIDI with the Timbre Wolf while also playing the Ody from my large keyboard controller.

Cheers, and thanks again. - Flu
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mihu



Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've looked once again at the original problem with envelopes. It seems only ADSR envelope is retriggered with each key press and AR not. To be more specific ADSR follows TRIG signal while AD is hardwired to GATE. The solution might be using the ADSR only, but this will obviously has its limitations.

Note that I have the first slim-keys edition. Later versions supposedly have corrections including LFO retriggering functions. Since this is related to keyboard they can work differently. The easiest way to check is to set both VCF and VCA to the same envelope and listen.

Regards
Michał
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Fluent



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mihu wrote:
I've looked once again at the original problem with envelopes. It seems only ADSR envelope is retriggered with each key press and AR not. To be more specific ADSR follows TRIG signal while AD is hardwired to GATE. The solution might be using the ADSR only, but this will obviously has its limitations.

Note that I have the first slim-keys edition. Later versions supposedly have corrections including LFO retriggering functions. Since this is related to keyboard they can work differently. The easiest way to check is to set both VCF and VCA to the same envelope and listen.

Regards
Michał


Hey Michal. My white module seems to trigger LFO okay. I think, if I understood correctly, the LFO auto-repeat was supposed to be in sync at all times when you press the keys? It seems to work that way on my Odyssey when I tried it (might have to test more, can't yet until I receive my new audio interface.) Unfortunately on the module the legato mode disables LFO, pulse width modulation, etc.. I read that is a bug on the module version due to it missing a capacitor or something.

And the issue I'm talking about happens no matter which envelope I use, i.e. I was expecting an envelope per voice when the Odyssey just has one per voice. So unless I'm misunderstanding that, this is basic behavior for the Oydssey, i.e. you have to play staccato if you want the full attack of each note as you play (and even then, I'm not 100% sure. It seems sometimes like it has to run through the release portion of the envelope as well, even if you play staccato.)

Thanks for the response. Cheers, - J

P.S. Michal, can I email you an mp3 example of something? I'd like to get your opinion on it. It is related to the oscillators "drifting" or some weird issue I'm having. If you can message me your email address or just email me, that would be cool. greenllamatapes@gmail.com - Thanks.
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slug
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fluent wrote:
It seems sometimes like it has to run through the release portion of the envelope as well, even if you play staccato.

Not on the two i have in front of me...
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Fluent



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slug wrote:
Fluent wrote:
It seems sometimes like it has to run through the release portion of the envelope as well, even if you play staccato.

Not on the two i have in front of me...


Well that's odd, because I'm playing the white module version I have here to confirm and it's still happening - playing staccato does not always retrigger the envelope. Or at least, setting a long attack, playing the first note it will swell in as it should, then release the key and wait a second to play the next key, and the next key will retrigger with zero attack.

Maybe it's a bug with the white module version?
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slug
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive got a white module here too, just tested it for about a minute on both AR and ADSR envelopes and is operating as expected for me.

Have you used that MIDI keyboard with other synths? It also needs to be considered in case it is something as simple as a sticking key or bung MIDI message etc.
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Fluent



Joined: 26 Apr 2018
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slug wrote:
Ive got a white module here too, just tested it for about a minute on both AR and ADSR envelopes and is operating as expected for me.

Have you used that MIDI keyboard with other synths? It also needs to be considered in case it is something as simple as a sticking key or bung MIDI message etc.


Yep, I've tried 2 MIDI keyboards now, my PSS-680 and Akai Timbre Wolf. Well this makes no sense. Kind of kills my synth buzz though when every second key press has zero attack.
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mihu



Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you post a photo of the synth, both top and back panel, so we could check the settings? Perhaps there is something not obvious that escapes our attention?
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