Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Looking for 12 string electric guitar patch

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jmchiro



Joined: 25 Feb 2011
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Looking for 12 string electric guitar patch Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I was playing my new Kronos in a jam last night and needed a 12 string electric guitar sound, and I could not find one.

Does anyone have such a patch to share? Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mikeeee
Junior Member


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 71
Location: Middle of MIddle EARTH. NZ.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thankyou Marty Cutler.
Quote/
Simulating 12-String Guitars

Most 12-string guitar patches are simply layered guitar samples that are tuned an octave apart. Unfortunately, that's not an ideal emulation, because the first two string pairs of a real 12-string are usually tuned in unison.

Instead of a using a preset 12-string patch, split the top two pitches from a 6-string guitar track and copy them to two separate tracks. Then, because string pairs don't quite sound at exactly the same time (depending on pick direction), slightly time-shift those tracks relative to each other. Quantizing one of the track pairs with a slight degree of randomization helps remove the timing uniformity between string pairs. Slight variations in Velocity can also help provide a more humanized performance. Additionally, you can add tiny amounts of Pitch Bend to simulate minute differences in tuning.

For the octave pairs, simply copy the notes to a new track and transpose the copied track down an octave. Then time-shift the copied track and add Pitch Bend as before. The results might not provide a letter-perfect simulation, but it will sound far more authentic than a factory-programmed 12-string guitar patch./endquote.
— Marty Cutler
_________________
My Machines:-
Korg Kronos 73 key version 1.6.
Yamaha DGX-630-YPG-635. Tyros2, Yamaha MOX8, Yamaha PSR2100. Yamaha PSR950.
Technics KN930. Technics KN5000. Roland VR-700,
KorgPA4X76, Technics KN7000SX. kross 2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Broadwave
Platinum Member


Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 1118
Location: Manchester UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1.

And don't forget, you have the option of "drones on top" or "drones on bottom". i.e Fender XII - on bottom, Rickenbacker - on top.

I usually use two patches (self sampled Telecaster). One as a regular six string patch, and one as the drones. If the drone track is delayed slightly you get drones on top, and if you delay the regular guitar track, you'll have drones on bottom.

I realise that it's a very subtle difference, but it CAN be noticeable sometimes. Smile
_________________
Synth DIY Projects
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
synthguy
Platinum Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My go-to electric 12 is, surprisingly enough, on an old Ensoniq workstation.

For those of you wanting to recreate a 12 string Rickenbacker patch, a Stratocaster does sound pretty close. You need a "twangy, wiry" guitar sound. I don't suggest you use the pitch randomization function in the oscillator, since this wobbles slightly over time, which guitar strings don't do. Unless you've had a few too many. Wink Instead, I suggest you use a Random LFO and set it to Stop, then add a tiny amount to OSC pitch, both oscillators if the LFO behaves as I expect it does.

Also, make sure you set those "unison oscillators" to the right key range, as the top two strings are E and B respectively, so the octave OSC should end at A#, and the second unison string continue at B. And as noted above, delay the harmony strings slightly.
_________________
PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Sangria



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm persuaded that the advice offered here is the best available anywhere. However, as a rank beginner, I could use much more in the way of hand-holding in order to implement it. I would like to have a Kronos Combi that emulates the sound of an electric 12-string similar to what the Byrds used. I know it's a big ask, but would anyone be willing to give me detailed step-by-step directions that a complete beginner could follow to implement the advice already offered in this thread?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3585
Location: Hellas

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For demanding users here is the Pro EXs solution for Electro acoustic guitars http://wavesart.eu/KronosEXs/ElectroAcoustic%20Suite.html
where the contained 12 strings "Guild" with full articulations and bends is a decent solution for a real 12 Strings guitar among others.
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook

Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sangria



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Thank you, but... Reply with quote

Thanks. Great sound, but not exactly what I'm looking for. What I'm hoping for (and would be willing to pay for) is not an electrified acoustic 12-string. Rather, I'm looking for a 12-string sound that resembles what the Byrds used on "Tambourine Man" or "Turn, Turn, Turn."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3585
Location: Hellas

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Thank you, but... Reply with quote

Sangria wrote:
I'm looking for a 12-string sound that resembles what the Byrds used on "Turn, Turn, Turn."

IMO , there is no 12 Strings guitar in Byrds "Turn" and intro was played by a single ordinary 6-strings E.guitar ...
So , You can easily replicate this exact sound using a lightly gained real Telecaster like in WavesArt Guitars Suite using just an etra Kronos
octave FX in direct input , as the guitarist probably did on this live video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T51nmyCODHQ

Hope this helps
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook

Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sangria



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. Very convincing. I will definitely explore this option. But despite my apparent error regarding the Byrds, I remain interested in emulating a Rickenbacker 12-string, too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Thank you, but... Reply with quote

Sangria wrote:
Thanks. Great sound, but not exactly what I'm looking for. What I'm hoping for (and would be willing to pay for) is not an electrified acoustic 12-string. Rather, I'm looking for a 12-string sound that resembles what the Byrds used on "Tambourine Man" or "Turn, Turn, Turn."


I like the Byrds 12 string rick sound, too.

a big part of that sound is amp modeling FX. Not sure if Kronos has the right type.

I have it on my project list to see how close Kronos can be.

Are you doing 60's covers ? Or just want to mess around with a good Rick 12 string sound ?
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sangria



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. For more than 50 years I've played keyboards in a dance band featuring covers of classic rock hits. We have not tried to duplicate the original recordings, but we strive to include any elements of the original records that we regard as essential. We have two excellent guitar players in our band, and they each bring many fine instruments to our gigs (including an electric 12-string). However, sometimes I can add depth to our overall sound with guitar-like support from my Kronos. I have a variety of personally tweaked Kronos Combis to do this, but occasionally I have wished that I could more closely approximate the sound of a Rickenbacker 12-string. Whenever Korg announces a new sound library, I always hope that an electric 12-string will be included. So far as I can tell, nobody has yet offered such a thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sangria wrote:
Thanks. For more than 50 years I've played keyboards in a dance band featuring covers of classic rock hits. We have not tried to duplicate the original recordings, but we strive to include any elements of the original records that we regard as essential. We have two excellent guitar players in our band, and they each bring many fine instruments to our gigs (including an electric 12-string). However, sometimes I can add depth to our overall sound with guitar-like support from my Kronos. I have a variety of personally tweaked Kronos Combis to do this, but occasionally I have wished that I could more closely approximate the sound of a Rickenbacker 12-string. Whenever Korg announces a new sound library, I always hope that an electric 12-string will be included. So far as I can tell, nobody has yet offered such a thing.


I go back to the 60/70's. Fabulous decades for us musicians.

In my local area, there is little to no interest in 60's album hits. Sure , there is an occasional tribute band but thats a diff context.

You are right- I haven't noticed a good Rick 12 string for our K's. You will find that our K's are missing many guitars and is very light on other basic acoustic instruments. Plus we don't have the enough FX. For me, its a constant work around. Sometimes , 3rd party samples address, sometimes not.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sangria



Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is indeed a very small market for classic rock covers. Through the years we've played mostly at high school reunions, college reunions, and birthday parties. In constructing our set lists, we nowadays mostly try to stay away from songs that have been brilliantly performed by the artists featured in the original recordings, preferring instead to concentrate on renditions where we can (with 50 years of practice and experimentation) arguably somehow improve upon the hit renditions while hopefully preserving the "feel" of the familiar original records. That said, we're still just a dance band -- we don't pretend to offer the sort of performances that folks would want to sit still and listen to. Obviously, most people who design Korg sound libraries are aiming their products at customers with very different needs than mine. However, although the Kronos has many strengths that are irrelevant to my needs, it produces many beautiful sounds that are well-suited to my needs. If nobody gets around to offering a 12-string sound as part of a sound library, I'm willing to try to roll my own, but I will need some help. I'd like to try to follow the advice offered near the top of this thread, but I'd need step-by-step instructions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sangria wrote:
There is indeed a very small market for classic rock covers. Through the years we've played mostly at high school reunions, college reunions, and birthday parties. In constructing our set lists, we nowadays mostly try to stay away from songs that have been brilliantly performed by the artists featured in the original recordings, preferring instead to concentrate on renditions where we can (with 50 years of practice and experimentation) arguably somehow improve upon the hit renditions while hopefully preserving the "feel" of the familiar original records. That said, we're still just a dance band -- we don't pretend to offer the sort of performances that folks would want to sit still and listen to. Obviously, most people who design Korg sound libraries are aiming their products at customers with very different needs than mine. However, although the Kronos has many strengths that are irrelevant to my needs, it produces many beautiful sounds that are well-suited to my needs. If nobody gets around to offering a 12-string sound as part of a sound library, I'm willing to try to roll my own, but I will need some help. I'd like to try to follow the advice offered near the top of this thread, but I'd need step-by-step instructions.


Sounds like you and your band have hit a happy medium on how to craft the classics.

I decided over a year ago to not emphasize covers(As a 1 man band).

Back then I had a ' stem ' of the song, the vocal as a standalone. No problem there. But when I laid down all the tracks(60's/70's), I ran into a few things.

1 was peoples memory of the 60's song really faded. 2nd, when I 'improved' the track with better sounding instruments and more rhythmic punch, I was told ' hey that doesn't quite sound like the record '.

I determined that I would have to be near perfect ( plus some silly visual) on the 60's/70's song. If I varied too much, my version came off cheesey.

If the audience was drinking and dancing and partying some song variation was probably ok. But per my local research, the interest in the 60's/70's material
was very small. And since I have to promote, I prefer promoting my original
material, and to be known by that.

If I can create a passable 12 String on the K I will let you know. I use to play guitar so I have a fair understanding. The program won't be overly complex.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sangria wrote:
T If nobody gets around to offering a 12-string sound as part of a sound library, I'm willing to try to roll my own, but I will need some help. I'd like to try to follow the advice offered near the top of this thread, but I'd need step-by-step instructions.


Gave it a try. I stacked 3 New Age Hybrid Guitar programs together. Did some micro tuning variation ( pitch). 1 Program was tuned at 00. 2nd Program at +12(octave higher). I added a little chorus and reverb.

The Fx were definitely lacking. You likely know how a 12 string is set up. So the above is simple workaround

12 string Ricks were famous for drifting out of tune. I thought chorus might help that.

Its not a convincing Rick sound. Maybe half way there. I didn't play with 7 band EQ. If you insert that you might exaggerate the paired E strings and B strings.

The 12 string acoustic guitar on the Kronos is not in the ball park for what you want, IMO.

There is no amp modeling Fx to use either.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group