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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3598
Location: Hellas
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 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Try to turn off all style's FX (no selection) and save style.
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Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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BR
Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 1500
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'll do that soon and get back to report the result.
Thanks |
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BR
Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 1500
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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@Antony,
Just to report back.
I did turn off all Effects and Insert Effects for Style Accompaniment and also deleted all Events from all Style Elements from my muted style and saved.
Result;
When I switch from a keyboard set 1 to keyboard set 2 or whatever, it still cuts off the sound. |
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| BR wrote: | @Antony,
Just to report back.
I did turn off all Effects and Insert Effects for Style Accompaniment and also deleted all Events from all Style Elements from my muted style and saved.
Result;
When I switch from a keyboard set 1 to keyboard set 2 or whatever, it still cuts off the sound. |
In such situation you need to have a second Pa4X with "keyboard set 2" preloaded. In this way the sound cut off changing sets is avoided with the advantage to layer the sounds of both Pa4X.
Former Pa3X use the older EDS chip from Pa500, M50, M3 changing sounds here is not an issue.
| AntonySharmman wrote: | | Quote: | | by choosing a random style and muted all style tracks |
The great difference by choosing your solution is that a valid style muted while playing can consume half of your Pa4X polyphony
and also existing midi events of FX will delay DSP proccessor and will affect smooth transition when changing KBD SET. |
Pa4X use a single core ARM/DSP (DM3725) being the reason about issues on polyphony and smooth transitions between sounds & effects. Having a second Pa4X reinforce the power of the single core ARM/DSP avoiding such issues.
Hopefully the new Pa5X will switch to a faster multi-core CPU/DSP like the AM5728 bringing realtime arranging features to another perspective.
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: Cutoff notes - prevent by not loading background-data |
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| BR wrote: | | .. I switch from a keyboard set 1 to keyboard set 2 or whatever, it still cuts off the sound... |
In Pa1000-thread (Setlist with / without StyleChange) I mentioned to update OS with a parameter LOCK-Style to prevent loading data of background-tracks when changing kbd-sets using next/previous with Songbook.
So OS only would be busy to change realtime-tracks of kbd-sets. Maybe that probably would also avoid the problems with cut-off sounds of Pa4x when used for Live-Bands and would get better smooth transitions.
--> http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=115935
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Cutoff notes - prevent by not loading background-data |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | BR wrote: | | .. I switch from a keyboard set 1 to keyboard set 2 or whatever, it still cuts off the sound... |
In Pa1000-thread (Setlist with / without StyleChange) I mentioned to update OS with a parameter LOCK-Style to prevent loading data of background-tracks when changing kbd-sets using next/previous with Songbook.
So OS only would be busy to change realtime-tracks of kbd-sets. Maybe that probably would also avoid the problems with cut-off sounds of Pa4x when used for Live-Bands and would get better smooth transitions.
--> http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=115935 |
Pa4X use a single core DM3725 ARM/DSP chip with a primitive 1GByte single LPDDR low profile mobile DDR memory. To avoid sounds cut off changing sets all the samples information should be preloaded to RAM memory. This is impossible on Pa4X because the amount of memory is limited shared at the same time by the real time OS and we have only 1 chip of RAM memory.
In the case of AM5728 we have an advanced cross DDR3 memory controller with two independent DDR3/DDR3L memory interfaces (EMIF) configuration and 4GBytes of RAM chips (4x more memory space in a cross data controller plus fast DDR3 chips) avoiding in this way all the issues related to sound cuts & effects changing sets. The Korg Kronos is an example without problems related to sounds set changes because the ATOM processors use an advanced cross DDR2/DDR3 memory controller.
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musiccankill
Platinum Member
Joined: 30 May 2010
Posts: 884
Location: Greece
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Are you sure the sound cuts?
The way pa arrangers work (since at least pa800/2x) is that the effects do change when you change the performance/keyboard set and this can be heard as sound cut/distortion/alteration depending on what efx the newly selected perf/kbdset is using...
I don't remember any sound cutoffs on my pa4x and my pa700 also continues playing the previous notes with the samples of previous samples (but with new effexts of course) too..I just tested again...
All samples (both factory and user) are getting loaded in ram on boot so there is no latency problem or whatever..
This behavior is normal for all pa keyboards till today...
Only kronos has smooth transition as the os architecture is different so it can keep the effects active till all notes of previous sound have stopped sounding In practice kronos must have one set of effect slots reserved for smooth transition so when you load sound A it uses effects slot 1 ,when you change to sound B it uses the effects slot 2 so sound A continues to play as it should with the effects loaded to effects slot 1..When you change sound again to sound C , it uses sound slot 1 again as previous sound (sound B) used the effects slot 2 and continues to till all notes are off (these info about kronos are not something i have read somewhere or have been told by anybody from korg.It is just the easier way for it to work and most probably how they have done it based on the code kronos runs)
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~~~The best keyboard for any player is the one that fits his/her needs!~~~
Korg keyboards owned now: PA5X 61 ,PA300, Triton extreme 61, Korg 707, Trinity plus |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Cutoff notes - prevent by not loading background-data |
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| alfredokiwi wrote: | .. To avoid sounds cut off changing sets all the samples information should be preloaded to RAM memory. This is impossible on Pa4X because the amount of memory is limited shared at the same time by the real time OS and we have only 1 chip of RAM memory.
In the case of AM5728 we have an advanced cross DDR3 memory controller .. |
As with LPDDR1 same technology is used as for tablet computing and smart phones (iPad, Galaxy, DroidX ..), I think primary benefit of using DDR3 SDRAM would enable higher bandwidth or peak data rates - that is undisputed.
It also is undisputed not to be able to preload all samples to RAM memory, because amount of memory is limited (as it is).
As the current models (Pa4x, Pa1000) do not use an AM5728 with DDR3, so it would be better to think about how to better use the existing amount of RAM memory, limited and shared at the same time by the real time OS.
In case using sb-entries to change kbd-sets each time background-data and realtime-data are loaded. That will cause sounds cutoff rather then amount of data to load is reduced by relatively large proportion of background-data.
In case of an update of OS with an LOCK-STYLE to prevent loading this large proportion of data the burden of the 1GB RAM would be much lower - maybe avoiding in this way the issues related to sound cuts & effects changing sets.
_________________
kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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musiccankill
Platinum Member
Joined: 30 May 2010
Posts: 884
Location: Greece
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Cutoff notes - prevent by not loading background-data |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | alfredokiwi wrote: | .. To avoid sounds cut off changing sets all the samples information should be preloaded to RAM memory. This is impossible on Pa4X because the amount of memory is limited shared at the same time by the real time OS and we have only 1 chip of RAM memory.
In the case of AM5728 we have an advanced cross DDR3 memory controller .. |
As with LPDDR1 same technology is used as for tablet computing and smart phones (iPad, Galaxy, DroidX ..), I think primary benefit of using DDR3 SDRAM would enable higher bandwidth or peak data rates - that is undisputed.
It also is undisputed not to be able to preload all samples to RAM memory, because amount of memory is limited (as it is).
As the current models (Pa4x, Pa1000) do not use an AM5728 with DDR3, so it would be better to think about how to better use the existing amount of RAM memory, limited and shared at the same time by the real time OS.
In case using sb-entries to change kbd-sets each time background-data and realtime-data are loaded. That will cause sounds cutoff rather then amount of data to load is reduced by relatively large proportion of background-data.
In case of an update of OS with an LOCK-STYLE to prevent loading this large proportion of data the burden of the 1GB RAM would be much lower - maybe avoiding in this way the issues related to sound cuts & effects changing sets. |
I don't think it is a hardware problem (again)..
The 1gb ram (on pa4x) is being distributed as 128mb system ram , 400mb factory library (in streaming mode where only few ms of each sample is being loaded into ram and the rest played back in realtime from the emmc), 400mb user ram (in which you can use a close to lossless 2:1 compression and get effectively 800mb 16bit samples converted to 8bit compressed in there) and the rest (whole or part of it) is for localized samples which for example are getting used in pa4x oriental (in streaming mode too).
Sounds (pcg's) and keyboard sets/performances need a very minimum amount or system ram (less that 10mb in uncompressed format (they are compressed when saved to set)).
There may be only one ram IC in there but it is divided and way faster than what pa800/2x/3x had..Core and dsp are also way faster than the previous models (thats why they changed architecture , esle they would have stayed in the pa3x cpu/dsp combo and not spend extra money designing the new board and reimplementing the software for it...
I still have seen no proof that the pa700/1000/4x are running a dm3725 as being said here and i doubt anybody has removed the ram which sits on top of the cpu , which will ruin the cpu board (yes the ram and the processor are stacked) to just see which processor is on the board and the service manuals have the cpu board as a "black box" giving no information about ANY component on that board (which includes the processor).
On pa300/900/600 manuals (not sure if on all of them) the cpu board is still a black box in the service manual (no schematics or anything close) but in the flow diagram on the cpu board it was writing the cpu model and if i remember correctly ,the emmc and ram size too (not exact part).
_________________
~~~The best keyboard for any player is the one that fits his/her needs!~~~
Korg keyboards owned now: PA5X 61 ,PA300, Triton extreme 61, Korg 707, Trinity plus |
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Cutoff notes - prevent by not loading background-data |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | alfredokiwi wrote: | .. To avoid sounds cut off changing sets all the samples information should be preloaded to RAM memory. This is impossible on Pa4X because the amount of memory is limited shared at the same time by the real time OS and we have only 1 chip of RAM memory.
In the case of AM5728 we have an advanced cross DDR3 memory controller .. |
As with LPDDR1 same technology is used as for tablet computing and smart phones (iPad, Galaxy, DroidX ..), I think primary benefit of using DDR3 SDRAM would enable higher bandwidth or peak data rates - that is undisputed.
It also is undisputed not to be able to preload all samples to RAM memory, because amount of memory is limited (as it is).
As the current models (Pa4x, Pa1000) do not use an AM5728 with DDR3, so it would be better to think about how to better use the existing amount of RAM memory, limited and shared at the same time by the real time OS.
In case using sb-entries to change kbd-sets each time background-data and realtime-data are loaded. That will cause sounds cutoff rather then amount of data to load is reduced by relatively large proportion of background-data.
In case of an update of OS with an LOCK-STYLE to prevent loading this large proportion of data the burden of the 1GB RAM would be much lower - maybe avoiding in this way the issues related to sound cuts & effects changing sets. |
Of course Pa4X has only 1GByte of mobile DDR RAM the maximum addressable on DM3725 processor. The space for real time OS and sampling data is very limited.
Latest Korg Pa arranger series has a feature labeled "Upgradable operating system, Multitasking, Load while play" meaning that resources are allocated dynamically on playing the reason about the sounds & effects cuts when changing sets.
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www.alfredoblogspage.blogspot.com.ar |
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Cutoff notes - prevent by not loading background-data |
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| musiccankill wrote: | | siebenhirter wrote: | | alfredokiwi wrote: | .. To avoid sounds cut off changing sets all the samples information should be preloaded to RAM memory. This is impossible on Pa4X because the amount of memory is limited shared at the same time by the real time OS and we have only 1 chip of RAM memory.
In the case of AM5728 we have an advanced cross DDR3 memory controller .. |
As with LPDDR1 same technology is used as for tablet computing and smart phones (iPad, Galaxy, DroidX ..), I think primary benefit of using DDR3 SDRAM would enable higher bandwidth or peak data rates - that is undisputed.
It also is undisputed not to be able to preload all samples to RAM memory, because amount of memory is limited (as it is).
As the current models (Pa4x, Pa1000) do not use an AM5728 with DDR3, so it would be better to think about how to better use the existing amount of RAM memory, limited and shared at the same time by the real time OS.
In case using sb-entries to change kbd-sets each time background-data and realtime-data are loaded. That will cause sounds cutoff rather then amount of data to load is reduced by relatively large proportion of background-data.
In case of an update of OS with an LOCK-STYLE to prevent loading this large proportion of data the burden of the 1GB RAM would be much lower - maybe avoiding in this way the issues related to sound cuts & effects changing sets. |
I don't think it is a hardware problem (again)..
The 1gb ram (on pa4x) is being distributed as 128mb system ram , 400mb factory library (in streaming mode where only few ms of each sample is being loaded into ram and the rest played back in realtime from the emmc), 400mb user ram (in which you can use a close to lossless 2:1 compression and get effectively 800mb 16bit samples converted to 8bit compressed in there) and the rest (whole or part of it) is for localized samples which for example are getting used in pa4x oriental (in streaming mode too).
Sounds (pcg's) and keyboard sets/performances need a very minimum amount or system ram (less that 10mb in uncompressed format (they are compressed when saved to set)).
There may be only one ram IC in there but it is divided and way faster than what pa800/2x/3x had..Core and dsp are also way faster than the previous models (thats why they changed architecture , esle they would have stayed in the pa3x cpu/dsp combo and not spend extra money designing the new board and reimplementing the software for it...
I still have seen no proof that the pa700/1000/4x are running a dm3725 as being said here and i doubt anybody has removed the ram which sits on top of the cpu , which will ruin the cpu board (yes the ram and the processor are stacked) to just see which processor is on the board and the service manuals have the cpu board as a "black box" giving no information about ANY component on that board (which includes the processor).
On pa300/900/600 manuals (not sure if on all of them) the cpu board is still a black box in the service manual (no schematics or anything close) but in the flow diagram on the cpu board it was writing the cpu model and if i remember correctly ,the emmc and ram size too (not exact part). |
Streaming mode is also used on Korg Krome with the internal microSD card and the FPGA chip. We can assure that a DM3725 is in use because the RAM match the datasheet specification I verified that but to confirm I don´t know if a kernel can be loaded or another app from internal microSD slot to run a sort of linux console and check the type of CPU. The LPDDR RAM on Pa3XLe has 4 banks 4 die stack they use a 1GByte MT46H256M32L4 from Micron manufacturer.
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musiccankill
Platinum Member
Joined: 30 May 2010
Posts: 884
Location: Greece
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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CPU type reported by linux ,as far as i remember, is ANDORIA with serial 000000000 (don't remember the exact number of zeros) , which obviously is a rename from korg as the linux distro is named like that too..
There is a variety of processors that use the same type of memory so i am not sure it is wise to assume that it is a specific part...
It could be a 3725/3730 but we are not sure (and in my opinion it doesn't matter).
The "problem" is within the software and not the hardware..
The cpu speed (if run at max) is double and more than what was in pa3x ..
And the dsp is faster too but don't remember the exact speed of pa3x so i can't say by how much...
Yes pa3x used 2 extra DSP's ,one for mp3 recording/playback (they put mp3 board of pa800/2x fixed on mainboard) and the other most probably for the tc-helicon (not sure if it is the same with 4x at the moment as i need to check the service manuals to see)..
pa800 and 2x both had tc-helicon which was not that good (primitive algorithms most probably based on first gen tc-helicon machines)..
Wish you see the thing here now...
The problem is not the hardware specs but how the software has been designed...Unfortunately the pa series never had smooth transition in sounds and that is because of the efx slots and lack of extra internal mixing buses (this COULD be (not sure as i m explaining later) a hardware limitation but it was never intended to do smooth transitions so nobody can blame either programmers or the architecture used)...
It is like finding the best fit for what you are going to do...
It is an overkill to get a sports supercar to use it for lets say transporting furniture...
Same here, it is an overkill to use a super powerful processor and use only 10-20% of it .
i don't think that anybody believes that they would give everything the kronos does to pa series cause that would be not a smart move for them as it will put the kronos out of the market (if pa price remained the same) or the pa4x price would go to around 4.5k euros...
Its the same reason why kronos doesn't have an arranger feature (it is a fact that it is able to run it as even the polyphony is software limited and can go up to 200 voices).
In my opinion , anybody with a company like korg or any other related brand would never design a product of a different type (arranger vs workstation in this case) to have almost same functionality and as a result ,throw the one of them out of the market...Pa series already have a ton of workstation functionality in them and in some cases (like the DNC and the 24 osc per sound) they are better..
I will be disappointed too though if pa5x (or whatever it ll be called ) will not have some true improvements (call it user streaming which is feasible even on current models if they want to or more effect/insert effect slots with user defined routing ,or any other upgrade that will make it stand out)...
Closing the semi offtopic part here and to give an idea about the original question,
You can build sounds in sequencer mode and use the sliders to enable/disable/mix the parts as you wish!And now you have smooth transition (workaround but workable) !!!
_________________
~~~The best keyboard for any player is the one that fits his/her needs!~~~
Korg keyboards owned now: PA5X 61 ,PA300, Triton extreme 61, Korg 707, Trinity plus |
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| musiccankill wrote: | CPU type reported by linux ,as far as i remember, is ANDORIA with serial 000000000 (don't remember the exact number of zeros) , which obviously is a rename from korg as the linux distro is named like that too..
There is a variety of processors that use the same type of memory so i am not sure it is wise to assume that it is a specific part...
It could be a 3725/3730 but we are not sure (and in my opinion it doesn't matter).
The "problem" is within the software and not the hardware..
The cpu speed (if run at max) is double and more than what was in pa3x ..
And the dsp is faster too but don't remember the exact speed of pa3x so i can't say by how much...
Yes pa3x used 2 extra DSP's ,one for mp3 recording/playback (they put mp3 board of pa800/2x fixed on mainboard) and the other most probably for the tc-helicon (not sure if it is the same with 4x at the moment as i need to check the service manuals to see)..
pa800 and 2x both had tc-helicon which was not that good (primitive algorithms most probably based on first gen tc-helicon machines)..
Wish you see the thing here now...
The problem is not the hardware specs but how the software has been designed...Unfortunately the pa series never had smooth transition in sounds and that is because of the efx slots and lack of extra internal mixing buses (this COULD be (not sure as i m explaining later) a hardware limitation but it was never intended to do smooth transitions so nobody can blame either programmers or the architecture used)...
It is like finding the best fit for what you are going to do...
It is an overkill to get a sports supercar to use it for lets say transporting furniture...
Same here, it is an overkill to use a super powerful processor and use only 10-20% of it .
i don't think that anybody believes that they would give everything the kronos does to pa series cause that would be not a smart move for them as it will put the kronos out of the market (if pa price remained the same) or the pa4x price would go to around 4.5k euros...
Its the same reason why kronos doesn't have an arranger feature (it is a fact that it is able to run it as even the polyphony is software limited and can go up to 200 voices).
In my opinion , anybody with a company like korg or any other related brand would never design a product of a different type (arranger vs workstation in this case) to have almost same functionality and as a result ,throw the one of them out of the market...Pa series already have a ton of workstation functionality in them and in some cases (like the DNC and the 24 osc per sound) they are better..
I will be disappointed too though if pa5x (or whatever it ll be called ) will not have some true improvements (call it user streaming which is feasible even on current models if they want to or more effect/insert effect slots with user defined routing ,or any other upgrade that will make it stand out)...
Closing the semi offtopic part here and to give an idea about the original question,
You can build sounds in sequencer mode and use the sliders to enable/disable/mix the parts as you wish!And now you have smooth transition (workaround but workable) !!! |
I check again the specs and seems to be a DM3725 CPU because matches the LPDDR RAM in use also the power controller chip is for DM3725 type of CPU. Unfortunately the amount of RAM of 1GB and number of cores only 1 ARM/DSP core on DM3725 is a heavy limitation being unable to satisfy user requirements for a flagship professional arranger. Despite that I'm very happy with the Pa3XLe release for only 1500 bucks because audio quality is very good with the voice recorded at pristine quality using same mainboard as the Pa4X. The only weak part on Pa3XLe are the TC-Helicon effects.
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10404
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:09 am Post subject: |
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I am getting serious case of Déjà vu but unrelated to....
| BR wrote: | am looking for some suggestions of what would be the best and convenient method to use the Pa4X in a live band with a drummer and a bassist
without using the Styles or simply using the Pa4X like a synthesizer without using styles.
Personally I was thinking to make a Set-List for each song (with song's name) that will include 4 keyboard sets assigned to 4 different sounds.
Now my question is what's the suitable mode among the Style Mode, Song Mode or Sequencer Mode for this project?
And am looking for a way to prevent hitting the Start/Stop button accidentally to not trigger a style while performing with a live drummer and a bassist?
Any suggestion is welcome. |
So, any other help for BR??????
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400nvd
Junior Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 56
Location: Groningen and Alicante
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I'll try it again.
Playing in a cover band I use my PA4x and a Nord Stage 3.
The Pa4x has all the songs we play in song book. I use the song mode as it has all the split, layer and keyboard set functionality as in style mode. Of course I don't start the payer 1 or when playing live with the band. I set up the balance knob as volume and turn it to 0, so I would accidently start the player no midi or mp3 will sound. Also when I would use the style mode, the bass sound from the chord would sound which our bass player don't like. And when I use the machine sole with styles I love the base sound when hitting a chord but not starting the style.
Now, when going from one to another keyboard set, smooth transition is possible. But I think it is only possible when not to many sound are layered. E.g. The song Nights in white satin. Keyboard set 1 Left side from split is analog string, right side is Flute to play the intro. Keyboard set 2, left side from split unchanged Strings, right side Upper 1 Legato string Upper 2 also some strings. When i'm playing the Flute intro I hold on the last note and switch to keyboard set 2. I start playing the string and The flute keep sounding until I release that last note.
The Nord Stage I use in this song for the mellotron strings. The whole selection of the song in songbook in PA4x and the programs in the Nord I select with an app in iPad called Onsong. This way I can setup for any song in seconds.
One advantage of using the song mode in the PA4 is that in the songbook you can have a midi or MP3 file with keys parts muted or so for practice purposes. As stated above you don't play it during your live gig with the band. But say you want to practice with your singer, it can all be done with the same setup.
I'm not a pro, far from, but this machine is facilitating this kind of usage as no other. Maybe Kurzweil can, I didn't try that one yet.
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Noël
Nord Stage 3, Korg PA4x,
HK Elements, HK Nano iPad pro |
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