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Phenomenal Keyboard Player
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Niki_Keyz



Joined: 23 Feb 2006
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Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Joe Gerardi wrote:
As a keyboard player for the last 56 years, I'm impressed with the technique; as a violinist that plays in a String Quartet for the last 15, I gotta say that sounded almost NOTHING like a violin.

..Joe


NOTHING?

You really mean it? You really heard almost NOTHING like a violin in that performance?

NOTHING??



I’m guessing Joe has some incredible Violin sounds on his Kronos to be making a statement like that. But the real purpose of this thread is to know why Korg doesn’t have stock sounds like this on these expensive machines.
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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Niki_Keyz wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:
Joe Gerardi wrote:
As a keyboard player for the last 56 years, I'm impressed with the technique;
as a violinist that plays in a String Quartet for the last 15, I gotta say that sounded almost NOTHING like a violin.
..Joe
NOTHING?
You really mean it? You really heard almost NOTHING like a violin in that performance?
NOTHING??
I’m guessing Joe has some incredible Violin sounds on his Kronos to be making a statement like that.
But the real purpose of this thread is to know why Korg doesn’t have stock sounds like this on these expensive machines.


I know exactly what Joe means !
This kind of playing technique on violin is strictly ethnic / east west style and doesn't remind at all a classic violin.
This pitch bend technique is used for more than 25 years by experts of this genre of Music in old analog synthesizers and older Triton series
and in this Kronos sound the only that reminds a classic violin is only the pure sampled violin note when played in whole note without using
pitch bend/ribbon that makes it fake !

Pitch stretching a sampled violin note do not behave like original bend in classic violin , the same occurs using portamento of a 4 notes lower
pitch note to emulate real glissando , that also totally fails !
We were using those outdated techniques with poor workstation samplers before 20 years where only VST had the privilege of providing
real instruments articulation !
But nowadays workstations like Kronos are capable to replicate real strings sampled articulation like grace, up/down bends , slides , real octave
up/down glissandos , pizzicato , tremolo etc and using well developed controllers we can achieve to mimic very closely a playing classic violin
without even touching pitch bend/ribbon that leads to fake results of violin timbre.

Why such sounds are not present in factory library ? Because the tension in future workstations is to get just a standard shipped sound
library equipped with advanced sound engines and then we will select specific third party EXs libraries for our needs concerning HD1 engine.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree completely - this is likely a stock violin voice, being played skillfully.

There's nothing different about that sound to what can be found on a myriad of workstations. It's all in the grace note playing and ribbon control.
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Sam CA
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anthony, the keyword here wasn't 'Classical' music....but the instrument itself.

There's absolutely no way any "musician" could possibly consider or confuse this performance or style with traditional Western Classical music. If they can't tell the difference, I would seriously doubt their musicianship.

Say someone speaks to you in Greek with a foreign accent. You'd know right away he's not a native speaker, but if they're fluent and clear , you can't say I've been speaking Greek for 50 years and that doesn't sound anything like the GREEK language!

Your explanation is fine but it addresses a different issue.
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Joe Gerardi
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:

NOTHING?

You really mean it? You really heard almost NOTHING like a violin in that performance?

NOTHING??


Nope. No articulation, no attack, no vibrato. Again, I'm not taking away from the excellent playing, I'm discussing the sound. The sound was mushy for a single violin, and the thing almost none of you know is that when played fast, a violin MUST be played using either sautille or Spicatto as a technique. (Where the bow bounces off the strings- sautille starts on the string, Spicatto off.) Neither were heard. Therefore the fast playing doesn't sound like what a violin would sound like when played fast. Not to a violinist.

There were some movie soundtrack guys back in the late 80's. They actually were noted for the violin sounds they could produce. They used a Synclavier, and for their single violin patch, they had over a gig of samples. A gig- in the 80's, mind. Their sound was pretty damn close.

Yes, there was a vague sting sound, but NOT a violin. If someone is going to imitate a sound, they also have to imitate the instrument's techniques. There's a lot of good guitar patches out there- if you play them using standard triad instead of open chords, it diminishes the sound. Same as if you use a really slow attack: gonna call that an good guitar sound?

I love my Kronos for what it can do; I also know where to not use it for exact sound replication because of limitations.

..Joe
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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam CA wrote:
Anthony, the keyword here wasn't 'Classical' music....but the instrument itself.

Nope ... of course , but one tiny reason for someone that plays or knows strings instruments in international Classical music
to have a second thought about the obvious that this sound has nothing to remind a real violin except the main color of
clear sustained notes of sampled violin as was explained later in my post and as Joe just wrote before.

Ethnic Balkan music enthusiasms can recognize this style as familiar since we're using this obvious technique for decades
(I know hundreds of similar and more skilled players) , but in fact this is just a style emulation of playing a Balkan/Arabic
violin but not a real violin sound itself and not related at all to violin techniques of an educated classical violinist.
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Sam CA
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonySharmman wrote:
Sam CA wrote:
Anthony, the keyword here wasn't 'Classical' music....but the instrument itself.

Nope ... of course , but one tiny reason for someone that plays or knows strings instruments in international Classical music
to have a second thought about the obvious that this sound has nothing to remind a real violin except the main color of
clear sustained notes of sampled violin as was explained later in my post and as Joe just wrote before.

Ethnic Balkan music enthusiasms can recognize this style as familiar since we're using this obvious technique for decades
(I know hundreds of similar and more skilled players) , but in fact this is just a style emulation of playing a Balkan/Arabic
violin but not a real violin sound itself and not related at all to violin techniques of an educated classical violinist.


Dude! He's NOT playing classical music. He's not a classical violinist. He's playing a keyboard sound! Again there's nothing classical about this sound or performance!

Which is why I said :

"Nice! He's familiar with oriental articulations and style. In fact he probably plays an ethnic string instrument beside keyboards."

There's nothing classical about this sound or style. I'm a full time composer. I write and record strings almost every day. I mean real acoustic instruments. That's my full time job! I know how real instruments work.
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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam CA wrote:
He's NOT playing classical music.

Sam , everybody can see the obvious , I just wanted to explain why this sound is not a real violin in any term whatever someone
skillfully is trying to play even if using classical Music valid violin techniques 'cause violin natural articulation samples are required ,
without recalling my knowledge as a big band conductor or advanced physics in native instruments sound developing.
No intention to argue ...
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ITguy54
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonySharmman wrote:
Sam CA wrote:
He's NOT playing classical music.

Sam , everybody can see the obvious , I just wanted to explain why this sound is not a real violin in any term whatever someone
skillfully is trying to play even if using classical Music valid violin techniques 'cause violin natural articulation samples are required ,
without recalling my knowledge as a big band conductor or advanced physics in native instruments sound developing.
No intention to argue ...


Perhaps a viola then.
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ebuzer52
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HE DOESN'T NOT PLAY ONLY, HE FEELS AND LIVES IN MUSIC TOO. HERE IT IS, THIS MEAN OF "MASTERY" ONE OF RUSSIAN PROVERB SAYS " To love music you need to listen to it first "
Here another video about mastery, some crazy players listed by one by.

https://youtu.be/PsHplJsJ0f8
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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ITguy54 wrote:
Perhaps a viola then.

To be more specific , in bellow video , player uses similar pitch bend technique (the best IMHO) in similar genre but
the any kind of violin/viola is very close to real world of strings because natural velocity attack portion layers and
natural violin articulations are present (Velo/+-Y) and script controlled pitch stretching (pitch bend) is applied at 2
semitones maximum with no outdated fake portamento pitch effect , although this is a base tone sound modeling
behavior waveform combined with all natural articulation samples.
This is Kronos potentials nowadays , using AL1 & HD1 in Combination mode a sound developer can replicate this ...
This is my point and not the skills of players !


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ITguy54
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then again Jean Luc Ponty’s violin doesn’t sound like a violin either.
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Joe Gerardi
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ITguy54 wrote:
Then again Jean Luc Ponty’s violin doesn’t sound like a violin either.


Almost impossible to amplify a fiddle and make it sound like well, a fiddle. It's how the sound is produced. That's why so far there hasn't been a satisfactory MIDI interface for violins, either.

..Joe
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Devnor
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More expression in that video than Jordan Rudess entire career. Of course it doesn't sound exactly like a violin. The technique is incredible. Well done!
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