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Bachus
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:42 pm Post subject: Kronos engines vs Gadgets |
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Asuming that Korg uses much of what it learned on the oasys/kronos in the Gadgets..
Soundwise, i think both are pretty much on par..
Sure the kronos engines seem to have much more depth and modulation sources..
But the smaller gadgets have such a nice easier to get into interface..
I am much more productive using the smaller gadgets then the deep kronos engines..
I think a combination of both bigger and smaller engines would be a great thing in the kronos.. (also hope they will upgrade the old engines interfaces to the level of the gadgets, but i guess that will not happen on the current kronos)
If there ever comes a Kronos replacement, i hope they will add all these small engines and more... and also add a new program mode, where you can add 4 sound sources and combine them with eachother in much more advanced ways then the current programs allow.. also sepperate programs for hd1 still sound like a bad idea to me..
Personally i think Korg has a lot to offer for a future workstation..
So how does everyone like the gadget sound engines and the diversity they offer?
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Koekepan
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Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 617
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| I'd be very interested in a Gadget workstation with a nice large touchscreen as well as knobs, faders, pads and a solid keyboard. say, 61 key, waterfall. |
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CharlesFerraro
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Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 955
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Kronos engines vs Gadgets |
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| Bachus wrote: | | Asuming that Korg uses much of what it learned on the oasys/kronos in the Gadgets.. |
The Kronos was developed by a U.S. team known as Korg R&D while Gadget is Nobuyoshi Sano's team in Japan. They might be using a lot of the same effects algorithms. Not sure about the oscillators/filters etc. I certainly don't hear much similarity between the Kronos and Gadget even when they're emulating the same thing like an MS-20 filter sweep.
| Bachus wrote: | | Soundwise, i think both are pretty much on par.. |
While my knee-jerk reaction is to say there's a stark difference to my ears, that's not to say that I could necessarily tell one from the other in a blind test. Gadget certainly meets the bar for good sounding synths. But there's a pristine hi-fi quality in the Kronos that Gadget lacks. It might be prudent to do real-world tests such as comparing filter sweeps, aliasing, etc.
| Bachus wrote: | | add a new program mode, where you can add 4 sound sources and combine them with eachother in much more advanced ways then the current programs allow.. also sepperate programs for hd1 still sound like a bad idea to me.. |
You're probably right that HD-1 and EXi banks could be consolidated. After all there are versions of HD-1 in STR-1 and MOD-7.
What more advanced ways were you thinking about combining program sources? Seems like that's what Combi mode is for. Sounds like you want Program and Combi mode consolidated as well which doesn't sound like a bad idea... Though, there are definitely virtues to the current parent/child architecture.
| Bachus wrote: | | So how does everyone like the gadget sound engines and the diversity they offer? |
Let me talk about my general experience with Gadget for a second. It was a big letdown on the Switch. No audio export... or any kind of export. You can transfer data with QR codes but that's not the most elegant solution. The lack of export is actually Nintendo's fault with their extreme anti-piracy measures.
Something on Korg's head though is the lack of touch-screen editing for automation data. You can't draw automation on the Switch screen like you can on the iPhone. In fact editing automation on Switch is a nightmare with a videogame controller.
Platform complaints aside, I definitely enjoy the small, dedicated engines idea. It allows you to hone in on one synthesis type and probably helps people understand sound design that much better. Like when you hear a supersaw or sync sound in a song, you'd know to reach for Brussles and Berlin respectfully if you wanted to recreate those timbres.
Side note, reaaallllyyyyy dislike that they named each synth after a city. While something like Chicago makes sense for a 303, others seem totally arbitrary. And city names don't carry any sort of descriptive character in the title... Makes a lot more sense to call a polyphonic ambient synthesizer Pad City or something instead of... Helsinki, what? Adding even single words into the names of the synths like Helsinki Pads or Chicago Bass would've been a thousand times better.
While all the different Gadgets seem to open up a lot of synthesis possibilities, there's actually nothing Gadget can do that the Kronos can't as far as baseline synthesis types go. The Kronos is certainly more powerful in a lot of respects. The Kronos effects are above and beyond Gadget's, there are maaaany more distortion algorithms, and dynamics algorithms in general, while the time based effects and O-verb outclass anything Gadget has to offer. The Kronos has physical modeling which is not in Gadget's repertoire, and allows user samples with crazy FM sample mangling capabilities. Maybeeee Gadget has a better RMS compressor with DeeMax but I haven't tried DeeMax personally.
| Koekepan wrote: | | I'd be very interested in a Gadget workstation with a nice large touchscreen as well as knobs, faders, pads and a solid keyboard. say, 61 key, waterfall. |
That's the real difference between the Kronos and Gadget imo. The Kronos isn't just engines, it's an entire dedicated controller for those engines. You can get the same level of control with Gadget running on a laptop with a beefy MIDI controller but you're paying for a lot at that point. The laptop alone can be the cost of a Kronos and then you'd need a 61 note keyboard, eight sliders, 16 switches and 8 knobs plus dedicated transport controls and more. The Kronos feels extraordinarily self-contained to me whereas Gadget needs the assistance of nano-series hardware and a second DAW for mixing.
I will say that Gadget's simplicity can lead to a lot more productivity. I can spend hours and hours pushing a Kronos sound further and further whereas on Gadget I'll hit a ceiling pretty fast which let's me get the track done more quickly and ultimately pump out a song in a shorter amount of time. You end up crossing the finish line faster since there's only so much you can do in Gadget's course of creative possibilities compared to the endless marathon of sound design that is the Kronos.
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Mike Conway
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2433
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Great post, Charles! |
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Sharp
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Someone needs to build a Midi Controller keyboard that functions as an iPad Dock.
Sharp.
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CharlesFerraro
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Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 955
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | Someone needs to build a Midi Controller keyboard that functions as an iPad Dock.
Sharp. |
isn’t that the Akai SynthStation49? https://youtu.be/iS9JVsQHScU
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EJ2
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Joined: 13 May 2002
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Location: Port Rowan, Ontario, Canada
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Bachus
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| CharlesFerraro wrote: | | Sharp wrote: | Someone needs to build a Midi Controller keyboard that functions as an iPad Dock.
Sharp. |
isn’t that the Akai SynthStation49? https://youtu.be/iS9JVsQHScU |
the second you touch those keys you will turn your head away
the keybed is toyquallity at best
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Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | | CharlesFerraro wrote: | | Sharp wrote: | Someone needs to build a Midi Controller keyboard that functions as an iPad Dock.
Sharp. |
isn’t that the Akai SynthStation49? https://youtu.be/iS9JVsQHScU |
the second you touch those keys you will turn your head away
the keybed is toyquallity at best |
NICE, Really like the idea of those controllers. Are they only for old iPads? Don't see anything that indicates it supports a recent model.
Anyway... yeah, somthing like that would be great. It would be even better if the iPad was intergrated into the body and not just plonked ontop like a music book on a stand.
Regards
Sharp.
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CharlesFerraro
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Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 955
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | | CharlesFerraro wrote: | | Sharp wrote: | Someone needs to build a Midi Controller keyboard that functions as an iPad Dock.
Sharp. |
isn’t that the Akai SynthStation49? https://youtu.be/iS9JVsQHScU |
NICE, Really like the idea of those controllers. Are they only for old iPads? Don't see anything that indicates it supports a recent model.
Anyway... yeah, somthing like that would be great. It would be even better if the iPad was intergrated into the body and not just plonked ontop like a music book on a stand.
Regards
Sharp. |
I'm not sure if they support recent iPads.
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burningbusch
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Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1203
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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The whole iPad thing is too much of a moving target. You have the ever-changing plugin adapter (original, lightning, USB-C) and the sizes of the iPads are all over the place. You're better off just allowing the controller to send/receive USB and then have some sort of bracket or slot for any type of device, e.g. iPad, iPhone, Windows tablet. Make it as flexible as possible.
Too many companies and users have been burned by this in the past.
Busch.
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CharlesFerraro
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 955
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:30 am Post subject: Re: Kronos engines vs Gadgets |
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| CharlesFerraro wrote: |
Something on Korg's head though is the lack of touch-screen editing for automation data. You can't draw automation on the Switch screen like you can on the iPhone. In fact editing automation on Switch is a nightmare with a videogame controller. |
Seems there was an update just today that fixes this! Touch screen automation for Gadget on Switch is here!
| Mike Conway wrote: | | Great post, Charles! |
Thanks!
Last edited by CharlesFerraro on Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CharlesFerraro
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Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 955
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Kronos engines vs Gadgets |
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| CharlesFerraro wrote: | I certainly don't hear much similarity between the Kronos and Gadget even when they're emulating the same thing like an MS-20 filter sweep.
| Bachus wrote: | | Soundwise, i think both are pretty much on par.. |
While my knee-jerk reaction is to say there's a stark difference to my ears, that's not to say that I could necessarily tell one from the other in a blind test. Gadget certainly meets the bar for good sounding synths. But there's a pristine hi-fi quality in the Kronos that Gadget lacks. It might be prudent to do real-world tests such as comparing filter sweeps, aliasing, etc. |
I went ahead and did a quick and dirty test. In order to get Dublin's filter to deliver a squelch similar to the MS-20EX I had to turn it's Drive parameter all the way up. This results in Dublin producing a more soft clipped waveform which sounds slightly louder even though both waves are normalized to zero decibels. That maybe gives the game away but still, check out the comparison below. Four sweeps of one play followed by four sweeps of the other. Can you guess which comes first and which comes second?
The test more or less reinforces what I said earlier. The Kronos sounds more authentic to a real MS-20. Gadget on the other hand sounds a like... well like a synth going through a drive unit lol. And that's not to say that Gadget sounds bad by any means. While the two don't sound like each other, I'm not sure if I would've been able to outright guess which was which in a blind test.
https://soundcloud.com/charlesferraro/dublin-vs-ms-20ex/s-ADGM2
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