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Gunnar Full Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2016 Posts: 185 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:37 am Post subject: Typical MOD-7 approaches |
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Hi folks,
I find that I'm mostly a "subtractive" guy, and whenever I delve into doing something, I'll typically go with AL-1. I usually start with some detuned saws and lowpass, and see where that takes me.. I'd like to expand that a bit though.
For those of you that praise the MOD-7, do you have any "go to"s. Say you want a pad or a lead. Where do you start and are there some Kronos specific niceties you tend to use? _________________ Gear: Korg Kronos 2 73, Arturia Microbrute & MiniBrute 2, Moog Mother-32, Ibanez RG320DXFM Guitar, ESP Viper 254FM Bass, Blackstar HT-1
Software: Reaper, EZ Drummer
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/gunnarsletta |
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Rigel Senior Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Posts: 252 Location: Izmir, Turkey
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Although I regard AL-1 as a completely capable tool for sophisticated sound design, I usually find myself tweaking at the MOD-7 modular patch page, connecting mixers, filters and oscillators to each other. Having six osc's, PCM, a couple of filters, and lots of LFO's and EG's which are interconnectible in any way makes the MOD-7 a very versatile engine. Very rarely (!) you come across an interesting result after some complex FM patching, but most of the time subtractive usage of MOD-7 is all you need for anything you have in mind. However, FM experimentation (or even jamming) becomes very easy and intuitive using the control surface sliders and knobs. FM sound design is actually more comprehensible and fun as you follow the examples and the theory behind from Dr Chowning's book (inventor of FM), which you can download from the internet. _________________ Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506. |
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Mike Conway Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 2433 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Typical MOD-7 approaches |
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Gunnar wrote: | I'll typically go with AL-1. I usually start with some detuned saws and lowpass, and see where that takes me |
There is a great MOD-7 walkthrough, called "Layering six saw oscillators" on page 350 of the Parameter Guide. If you haven't tried it, you'll find it a great place to start. Very easy to change the waveforms to square, triangle, sine, etc. |
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Gunnar Full Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2016 Posts: 185 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the ideas guys
Rigel wrote: | ... I usually find myself tweaking at the MOD-7 modular patch page, connecting mixers, filters and oscillators to each other. ... Very rarely (!) you come across an interesting result after some complex FM patching |
Hehe, this has been my general approach to it too, though I must say I'm not sure I've reached that "very rarely" part yet
Rigel wrote: |
, but most of the time subtractive usage of MOD-7 is all you need for anything you have in mind.
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Good point, the MOD-7 is not ONLY an FM synth, in fact.. far from it.
Rigel wrote: |
However, FM experimentation (or even jamming) becomes very easy and intuitive using the control surface sliders and knobs. FM sound design is actually more comprehensible and fun as you follow the examples and the theory behind from Dr Chowning's book (inventor of FM), which you can download from the internet. |
Excellent idea, I'll dig up that book.
Mike Conway wrote: |
There is a great MOD-7 walkthrough, called "Layering six saw oscillators" on page 350 of the Parameter Guide. If you haven't tried it, you'll find it a great place to start.
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This is indeed a good place to start. I did that walkthrough when I got the Kronos a few years ago and again a few weeks back when I wanted to start exploring the MOD-7 a bit further. _________________ Gear: Korg Kronos 2 73, Arturia Microbrute & MiniBrute 2, Moog Mother-32, Ibanez RG320DXFM Guitar, ESP Viper 254FM Bass, Blackstar HT-1
Software: Reaper, EZ Drummer
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/gunnarsletta |
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Rigel Senior Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Posts: 252 Location: Izmir, Turkey
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Here is a link to my dropbox for the FM cookbook:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/24sgajgobnfp57n/FMTheoryAndApplicationsChowning.pdf?dl=0 _________________ Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506. |
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Gunnar Full Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2016 Posts: 185 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Excellent, thanks for the link! _________________ Gear: Korg Kronos 2 73, Arturia Microbrute & MiniBrute 2, Moog Mother-32, Ibanez RG320DXFM Guitar, ESP Viper 254FM Bass, Blackstar HT-1
Software: Reaper, EZ Drummer
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/gunnarsletta |
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CharlesFerraro Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Would be more useful if someone exported DX7 patches for all the workbook "X-amples" and created MOD-7 programs. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro |
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Rigel Senior Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Posts: 252 Location: Izmir, Turkey
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:56 am Post subject: |
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CharlesFerraro wrote: |
Would be more useful if someone exported DX7 patches for all the workbook "X-amples" and created MOD-7 programs. |
This is the fun part. You will follow the examples step by step and try to observe the changes your action causes. Loading a sysex file in a second won't do any good for your FM course 😂. _________________ Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506. |
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CharlesFerraro Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Rigel wrote: | CharlesFerraro wrote: |
Would be more useful if someone exported DX7 patches for all the workbook "X-amples" and created MOD-7 programs. |
This is the fun part. You will follow the examples step by step and try to observe the changes your action causes. Loading a sysex file in a second won't do any good for your FM course 😂. |
The reason I said that is because the values of MOD-7 aren't 1:1 with the DX7... so you'll be hearing the wrong thing while going through the workbook examples. That's very unhelpful since exact values are crucial when it comes to FM synthesis. That workbook is more or less useless for learning MOD-7 since it's not possible to follow the X-amples which is the foremost way the book teaches FM. Did you yourself even get any direct use from of that when it comes to learning MOD-7? Would make a lot more sense if you went through that workbook while using a DX series synth. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro
Last edited by CharlesFerraro on Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rigel Senior Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Posts: 252 Location: Izmir, Turkey
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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: |
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It's not a DX7 manual. It teaches you the theory and techniques of using FM, and yes, it worked for me, and many others I know. The parameter values are not one to one corresponding, but you figure it out once you get started studying. _________________ Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506. |
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CharlesFerraro Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Rigel wrote: | It's not a DX7 manual. |
You're right, it's not a DX7 manual. It's a DX7 workbook.
Page 9: "...we encourage you to read this book with an "X" Series synthesizer at hand."
Page 10:
The workbook examples are designed for "X" Series synthesizers. That includes the DX7, DX9, DX100 etc etc etc. Appendix 2 in the book is dedicated to showing how to convert operator values between these synthesizers since following the "X"-amples are crucial. The parameter values do not translate to MOD-7 so a Kronos conversion chart would be necessary. I'd make it myself but I don't have a DX7. DX7 patches can however be uploaded to MOD-7 via SysEx. If someone uploaded all of the workbook "X"-amples as I suggested, then this would be a fine resource. Alternatively if someone uploaded audio clips of each "X"-ample then that would also prove highly useful. As it stands, Kronos users are left fumbling through the dark without any real reference to what the workbook "X"-amples are covering.
Rigel wrote: | It teaches you the theory and techniques of using FM, |
It is the best FM resource I've ever seen... if you have an "X" Series synthesizer.
Rigel wrote: | and yes, it worked for me, and many others I know. |
I can see limited application with helping people understand how FM sidebands are calculated. Other gems are sprinkled throughout but the vast majority of the book is unhelpful without an "X" Series synth.
Rigel wrote: | The parameter values are not one to one corresponding, |
I rest my case.
Rigel wrote: | but you figure it out once you get started studying. |
No... you don't. As stated MOD-7 users are left fumbling in the dark.
While your intentions are good, I think your ego is preventing you from admitting that FM Theory & Practice is not a good resource for helping people learn MOD-7. I'm sorry if that's offensive but that seems to be the case here. The workbook could be the best resource ever for MOD-7 with DX7 patches, audio examples, or in the very least a conversion chart. But by itself, people are s**t out of luck. I would never suggest this resource as a curriculum book for a student if my primary intention was to teach them the ins and outs of FM with MOD-7. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro |
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Rigel Senior Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Posts: 252 Location: Izmir, Turkey
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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:37 am Post subject: |
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DX series was the only FM synth of the time, maybe that's the reason the book is based on it. Whatever, l can create sounds along the methods described in that book, and it is the sole resource, and Kronos the only FM synth I've had in my hands. And I could find ways to adjust every single value on MOD7. This was about seven years ago though.
I cannot see any practical reason for your aggression and rude behaviour. If you don't like the fact that parameter values have an offset or some of them have a ratio between two systems, and you did not find a way to correct them, or find math behind it (actually it's elementary) useful, then the book is not for you. What does this have to do with my ego? _________________ Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506. |
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chris Senior Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 426 Location: Belgium
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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for this Rigel.
FM in MOD7 is rather complex to tame. QI Robinez did a great job taming this beast. _________________ Chris (Belgium) |
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Rigel Senior Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2012 Posts: 252 Location: Izmir, Turkey
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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:09 am Post subject: |
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You're welcome Chris.
I checked the differences or rather implementations of various parameters' values on both the DX7 and the MOD7.
First the operators are numbered in reverse order, i.e. op6 on Kronos is op1 on the DX7. By the way, the classic DX7 algorithms can be reached on patch panel page>vintage dx menu item on the upper left corner. Second, maximum value for most parameters is 99 on DX7 whereas the upper limit of Kronos is 100, but this has very little effect if any. The pitch EG is found on the Osc main page, which has the pitch ams setting and the loaded dx7 sysex files changes this to EG9 for pitch modulation and sets the EG9 accordingly.
On MOD7 you use ratio 0 for DX7's "fixed mode" and change the Hz settings directly.
The main difference and the hardest one is the implementation of rates and levels of EGs on both systems. Rate values on the DX7 seem to be the reciprocal of those on MOD7, meaning the fastest attack time on DX7 is 99 whereas it is 00 on MOD7, and vice versa. Since Kronos envelope levels can have values between -99 and +99, and the corresponding DX7 levels are between 0 and 99, another conversion is required her as well.
There must be other differences which I did not come across or missed altogether, and I think it will be great if you append them here for future reference.
These conversions seem to be automatically dealt with by Kronos during the loading of DX7 sysex files. When studying books based on DX series such as the one mentioned above, these differences should be kept in mind. I should add that I used to keep a DX7 emulator (SynprezFM for me) nearby to check the sounds of both systems, while studying. _________________ Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506. |
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