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Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 17832 Location: Ireland

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:17 pm Post subject: 


Quote:  Be careful not to conflate patterns in nature with the patterns in humancreated math systems.
We count to 10 because we have 10 fingers, and thus our main number system is base 10: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. The number 432 is base 10, and thus only has meaning within a base 10 numbering system. Its premise is base 10, and any argument invalidating that premise also invalidates any logical construct derived from that premise. 
I'd have to disagree with you on that. You count 10 not because you have 10 fingers, it's because where you are from they use the Metric System and it's been drilled into your brain since you were a kid in school. In countries where the Imperial System is used they count 12, again not because they have 12 fingers.
Just look at the numbers and forget standards.
It all gets back to Tesla and his 3 6 and 9. If you look at the diagram in the last video where the numbers are laid out, you will see how everything in the universe can be calculated off that table.
As for 432 being a base of 10, I don't agree. I believe it's 12 because of the rules behind Tesla's 3 6 and 9.
432 Hz / 12 = 36
There's your 3 and your 6 that can only exist because of the 9 on the table.
Looks what happened when you add 3 and 6, you get 9
Resulting in 432 Hz = 3,6,9
Another example, for Earth to pass through one complete cycle of the Constellations it takes 25,920 Years. Years which are a measurement of time (12).
12 X 5 = 60
60 X “432Khz” = 25,920
Another example, the diameter of our Sun is 865,000 miles. Remove 000 as null values and you have 865.
“432hz” X 2 = 865
And so on.....
Even shapes obey 3 6 and 9
A circle has 360 degrees. (3+6+0=9)
Semicircle has 180 degrees. (1+8+0=9)
One fourth of circle has 90 degrees. (9+0=9)
45 degree (4+5=9)
22.5 degree. (2+2+5=9)
11.25 degree (1+1+2+5=9)
Same rules apply to the entire universe. It's everywhere.
Quote:  So while pi, the golden ratio, the Fibonacci series, the inverse square, etc all definitely represent beautiful patterns in nature, don't confuse the map for the territory. Base 10 is the humancreated map, but it is not the exact same thing as real nature, which is the territory. 
I find that if you do the research you will see that all these amazing theories are also connected to the subject of this thread and that the people who discovered them are the ones who ultimately applied man made scientific rules that prevent them from seeing the full scope of their discoveries.
Fibonacci sequence for example starts at 1 because that's what people normally do. Where if you do some research on the Net, you will see others have been looking at this from a code breaking point of view starting at 3. When they do, every road leads back to Tesla's 3 6 and 9 with perfect maths.
Quote:  As an aside though, if you do an A/B comparison of a piece of music in 440Hz vs 432Hz, you can achieve a more pleasant sound with 432, simply because it is tuned down. Tuning guitars down gives a beefier sound not because of some base 10 reason, but simply because the physical tension is looser. 
The mere fact it sounds better to your ears should count for something very profound. Science does not measure love, gut feelings, spiritual awareness or any of the things in life that make you feel alive. Yet we know all these things do exist. So why trust science so much for an explanation?
If it feels right, that's what should matter most. Especially when making music.
Regards
Sharp. _________________


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Derek Cook Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014 Posts: 1065 Location: Wales, UK

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:58 pm Post subject: 


Sharp wrote:  Thanks a million for that Derek.
Sincerely appreciated you sharing that story. Amazing.
Sharp. 
No worries. I'm glad you found it interesting after all the effort of writing it! _________________ Derek Cook  Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website 

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StephenKay KARMA Developer Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002 Posts: 2784 Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:28 am Post subject: 


Sharp wrote:  I'd have to disagree with you on that. You count 10 not because you have 10 fingers, it's because where you are from they use the Metric System and it's been drilled into your brain since you were a kid in school. In countries where the Imperial System is used they count 12, again not because they have 12 fingers. 
Sorry, must disagree with YOU on that.
The metric system where larger and smaller units of measurement are based on multiples of 10 came completely after humans developed a system of mathematics based on 10 digits. And there's a reason why "digits" can be used to refer to either numbers or fingers.
The Imperial System is also based on base 10 math. To say that because they have a unit named a "foot" which contains 12 inches means you "count to 12" is completely wrong. 12 inches is a base 10 measurement.
If you were counting to 12, you would have two other symbols in use besides 09, such as A and B. A foot (12 inches) in base 12 would be 10, because you would count 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,10. _________________ Stephen Kay  KARMA Developer • KarmaLab  karmalab.com


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Zeroesque Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 449 Location: SoCal

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:01 pm Post subject: 


Sharp wrote:  432 Hz / 12 = 36
There's your 3 and your 6 that can only exist because of the 9 on the table.

You mean 30 and 6, right?
Sharp wrote:  “432hz” X 2 = 865

Being wrong on the math does not help your argument.
Sharp wrote: 
And so on.....
Even shapes obey 3 6 and 9
A circle has 360 degrees. (3+6+0=9)
Semicircle has 180 degrees. (1+8+0=9)
One fourth of circle has 90 degrees. (9+0=9)
45 degree (4+5=9)
22.5 degree. (2+2+5=9)
11.25 degree (1+1+2+5=9)

What about the next one?
360 is an arbitrary number that's been in use for a few millennia. Nothing special about it beyond aesthetic and expedience.
Sharp wrote: 
Same rules apply to the entire universe. It's everywhere.

Numbers that actually apply to the entire universe are constants like c, e, pi...hardly nice round numbers convenient for a specious argument to laymen.
Thank you psi and Stephen for adding some muchneeded rationality to the conversation.
Also, Tesla was a worldclass genius. And crazy. Bat$h1t crazy. _________________ Present Korg: Kronos2 88 Gold, Kronos 61, M1:Legacy, MDEX, Pandora PX2
Past Korg: M373, Karma, MicroX, TR88, Triton ST 61, TritonRack, TRRack, Trinity V3, DW8000 

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Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 17832 Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:24 pm Post subject: 


StephenKay wrote: 
The metric system where larger and smaller units of measurement are based on multiples of 10 came completely after humans developed a system of mathematics based on 10 digits. And there's a reason why "digits" can be used to refer to either numbers or fingers.
The Imperial System is also based on base 10 math. To say that because they have a unit named a "foot" which contains 12 inches means you "count to 12" is completely wrong. 12 inches is a base 10 measurement.
If you were counting to 12, you would have two other symbols in use besides 09, such as A and B. A foot (12 inches) in base 12 would be 10, because you would count 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,10. 
That's totally ok, as I said in that post, just look at the numbers and forget standards. What defines 10 and 12 as important numbers is not important at all.
The important numbers are 3 6 and 9 as Tesla explains.
Regards
Sharp. 

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StephenKay KARMA Developer Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002 Posts: 2784 Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:59 am Post subject: 


Sharp wrote:  StephenKay wrote: 
The metric system where larger and smaller units of measurement are based on multiples of 10 came completely after humans developed a system of mathematics based on 10 digits. And there's a reason why "digits" can be used to refer to either numbers or fingers.
The Imperial System is also based on base 10 math. To say that because they have a unit named a "foot" which contains 12 inches means you "count to 12" is completely wrong. 12 inches is a base 10 measurement.
If you were counting to 12, you would have two other symbols in use besides 09, such as A and B. A foot (12 inches) in base 12 would be 10, because you would count 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,10. 
That's totally ok, as I said in that post, just look at the numbers and forget standards. What defines 10 and 12 as important numbers is not important at all.
The important numbers are 3 6 and 9 as Tesla explains.
Regards
Sharp. 
I still think you're missing the point that Zeroesque was making. Let's take the 360 degree number (3 + 6 + 0 = 9) as you say. This only works in Base 10 math.
In Base 12, a circle could still be divided into 360 portions (degrees), but the number would be represented as 260. 2 + 6 + 0 = 8. Don't believe me? Try this base convertor:
http://www.unitconversion.org/numbers/base10tobase12conversion.html
So Tesla's magic formula presupposes that the entire natural Universe uses Base 10 (which was developed by humans with 10 digits).
However, suppose there are aliens with 16 fingers/digits? The "Hexadecimalites" (being far more advanced than us, since they can calculate raw MIDI data on their fingers) would represent 360 degrees as 168. Again, Tesla's formula does not apply.
360 in Base 10 is 260 in Base 12 and 168 in Base 16.
There's more than one system of mathematical expression, and the "magic formula" only works with one of them.
I don't know if 432 Hz "sounds better" than 440 Hz, but I have to agree with Zeroesque on this. _________________ Stephen Kay  KARMA Developer • KarmaLab  karmalab.com


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KK Senior Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016 Posts: 401


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StephenKay KARMA Developer Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002 Posts: 2784 Location: Scottsdale, AZ


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Zeroesque Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 449 Location: SoCal

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:59 pm Post subject: 


StephenKay wrote:  However, suppose there are aliens with 16 fingers/digits? The "Hexadecimalites" (being far more advanced than us, since they can calculate raw MIDI data on their fingers) would represent 360 degrees as 168. Again, Tesla's formula does not apply. 
Yeah, but 0x168 = 0x1 + 0x6 + 0x8 = 0x15 = 21 = 2 + 1 = 3
OMG it's 3!
You still head to NAMM these days? _________________ Present Korg: Kronos2 88 Gold, Kronos 61, M1:Legacy, MDEX, Pandora PX2
Past Korg: M373, Karma, MicroX, TR88, Triton ST 61, TritonRack, TRRack, Trinity V3, DW8000 

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StephenKay KARMA Developer Approved Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002 Posts: 2784 Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:04 pm Post subject: 


Zeroesque wrote:  StephenKay wrote:  However, suppose there are aliens with 16 fingers/digits? The "Hexadecimalites" (being far more advanced than us, since they can calculate raw MIDI data on their fingers) would represent 360 degrees as 168. Again, Tesla's formula does not apply. 
Yeah, but 0x168 = 0x1 + 0x6 + 0x8 = 0x15 = 21 = 2 + 1 = 3
OMG it's 3! 
Quote:  You still head to NAMM these days? 
Not recently, not this time, no good reason to drop a couple grand. Maybe next year... _________________ Stephen Kay  KARMA Developer • KarmaLab  karmalab.com


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ITguy54 Junior Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2015 Posts: 80

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:21 am Post subject: 


StephenKay wrote:  Sharp wrote:  StephenKay wrote: 
The metric system where larger and smaller units of measurement are based on multiples of 10 came completely after humans developed a system of mathematics based on 10 digits. And there's a reason why "digits" can be used to refer to either numbers or fingers.
The Imperial System is also based on base 10 math. To say that because they have a unit named a "foot" which contains 12 inches means you "count to 12" is completely wrong. 12 inches is a base 10 measurement.
If you were counting to 12, you would have two other symbols in use besides 09, such as A and B. A foot (12 inches) in base 12 would be 10, because you would count 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,10. 
That's totally ok, as I said in that post, just look at the numbers and forget standards. What defines 10 and 12 as important numbers is not important at all.
The important numbers are 3 6 and 9 as Tesla explains.
Regards
Sharp. 
I still think you're missing the point that Zeroesque was making. Let's take the 360 degree number (3 + 6 + 0 = 9) as you say. This only works in Base 10 math.
In Base 12, a circle could still be divided into 360 portions (degrees), but the number would be represented as 260. 2 + 6 + 0 = 8. Don't believe me? Try this base convertor:
http://www.unitconversion.org/numbers/base10tobase12conversion.html
So Tesla's magic formula presupposes that the entire natural Universe uses Base 10 (which was developed by humans with 10 digits).
However, suppose there are aliens with 16 fingers/digits? The "Hexadecimalites" (being far more advanced than us, since they can calculate raw MIDI data on their fingers) would represent 360 degrees as 168. Again, Tesla's formula does not apply.
360 in Base 10 is 260 in Base 12 and 168 in Base 16.
There's more than one system of mathematical expression, and the "magic formula" only works with one of them.
I don't know if 432 Hz "sounds better" than 440 Hz, but I have to agree with Zeroesque on this. 
Thank you, Steven. It may be all for naught. I tried bring bringing reason and logic to this discussion as well, noting the math problems with the theory as well as some factual errors. You can only try though. 

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