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gobe
Joined: 25 Jan 2019
Posts: 4
Location: Ranst Belgium
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 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:00 pm Post subject: Drawbars PA1000 |
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Hello,
I recently got a PA1000. Sorry for me English, my language is Dutch
As an old hammond player, I would like to know if it is possible to operate the drawbars with a midi controller.
And if so, with which settings.
Thank you.
Regards,
René
translated with Google |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1843
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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| gobe wrote: | | .. if it is possible to operate the drawbars with a midi controller .. |
No, there is is no information in the manual that you can remotely control the slider functions of the drawbars.
_________________
kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| According to the manual, it seems to be possible... MIDI CC 98 and 99 (2-byte NRPN commands) are footnoted for a variety of functions, including drawbar settings. Unfortunately, the exact settings needed aren't specified, and I have not found a more complete MIDI implementation document. The commands are shown as valid for both Send and Receive, however, so you may be able to determine what settings you need by monitoring what the PA1000 sends during drawbar manipulation. |
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duby2
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 1378
Location: USA Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:30 pm Post subject: pa1000 |
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someone in the pa4x i saw use this ..just look in to it ...
BEHRINGER
FCB1010 Ultra-Flexible MIDI Foot Controller |
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gobe
Joined: 25 Jan 2019
Posts: 4
Location: Ranst Belgium
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Scott, I tested it with Midi-Ox, sent back incoming but no response to the keyboard. Maybe I overlook an institution on the Pa. Other settings will work. I test it even further.
Regards,
René |
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Chris60
Joined: 04 Apr 2019
Posts: 10
Location: Beauvais, France
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | gobe wrote: | | .. if it is possible to operate the drawbars with a midi controller .. |
No, there is is no information in the manual that you can remotely control the slider functions of the drawbars. |
Hello frend from Belguim... I'm french. May be you can read this post in french ! Tell me if not, I'll translate it into (approximative) english. It's a copy of a post I wrote in another Forum. I think it give an answer to your question...
Here is a simple demo for the midi commands sent by Midi >> https://youtu.be/qUCyPt9Ty-Q
Bonjour à tous,
Je continue la découverte de mon PA1000 et, chemin faisant, je croise quelques particularités qui ne sont pas documentées. Voici, par exemple les messages midi émis et reconnus par le PA1000, concernant la partie « DrawBars Organ ». J’ai listé ces codes en Décimal, pour faciliter la lecture et le rapprochement avec la documentation. Ces codes concernent la partie Up1 (canal 0, 176 Décimal ou B0 Hex…). A adapter selon le canal souhaité !
Ces codes peuvent être très utiles pour obtenir des choses que l’on ne peut faire en natif sur l’instrument ou qui demanderaient une dextérité hors normes !
Par exemple, tout musicien qui a déjà vu (ou même pianoté) un B3 sait que le passage d’une sonorité à l’autre à l’aide des tirettes harmoniques ne peut pas se faire de manière instantanée comme le fait un changement de « Keyboard Set » sur nos PA1000. Même les possesseurs d’un PA4x qui ont des « tirettes » physiques à leur disposition, trouveront les changements de sonorité assez acrobatiques. En envoyant ces codes progressivement depuis un système midi vers l’instrument, on obtiendra en un seul geste (pression sur une pédale par exemple), le déplacement des tirettes harmoniques comme si elles étaient manipulées manuellement… Je vous proposerai plus loin, un très court exemple pour vous donner une idée plus précise de cet effet.
Voici donc la liste des codes que j’ai pu identifier (En décimal ):
176, 99, 2 > Commande
176, 98, 0 > 16'
176, 6, 0 > Tirette à 0 (Dernier chiffre de 0 à 127
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 2 > 5' 1/3
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 1 > 8'
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 3 > 4'
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 4 > 2' 2/3
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 5 > 2'
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 8 > 1' 3/5
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 6 > 1' 1/3
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 7 > 1'
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 9 > Tone Hard
176, 6, 1
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 9 > Tone Mellow
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 16 > Percu On/Off
176, 6, 0 > Ici "Off" (1 pour "On')
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 12 > Volume Percu
176, 6, 31 > Ici 31
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 13 > Longueur Percu
176, 6, 87 > Ici 87
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 11 > Percussion 4' On
176, 6, 2
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 11 > Percussion2' 2/3 On
176, 6, 1
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 19 > Commande "Diaphonie » (Fuite d’une roue phonique sur l’autre, Leakage)
176, 6, 1
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 20 > Valeur niveau "Diaphonie" (Leakage)
176, 6, 93
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 18 > Commande du niveau des clics "Key Off"
176, 6, 28
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 10 > Commande du niveau des clics "Key On"
176, 6, 39
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 15 > Bouton On/Off pour les clics "Key Off"
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 17 > Bouton On/Off pour les clics "Key On"
176, 6, 0
Vous aurez sans doute remarqué que la numérotation des tirettes dans les messages n’est pas conforme à leur position sur l’instrument !
Voici maintenant un exemple de programmation pour une pédale, permettant d’obtenir le mouvement simultané de deux tirettes (4’ et 2’) partant de 0 et s’arrêtant à 6 en un peu plus d’une demi seconde (525 millisecondes) (en hexadecimal):
$ Intervalle 15 >Cette commande implique une attente de 15 ms entre deux lignes (35 x 15 ms = 525 ms)
b0, 63, 2 > Le reste de la liste est rempli automatiquement par le logiciel MFC5
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 3
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 3
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 13
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 13
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 25
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 37
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 25
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 37
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 49
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 49
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 5b
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 5b
Rassurez-vous, il y a des moyens pour ne rien saisir manuellement !!
Ce que j’utilise est ici : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hpGDpi-yYZYIzQeji-yWvJZ_HB5de_A9
Tout est dit dans le document pdf de ce dossier, si vous êtes intéressés, je suis à votre disposition..
La liste de commandes ci-dessus est l’une des listes de commandes que j’ai utilisées (dans ce cas précis, il y en a 6) pour enregistrer l’extrait de morceau que je vous propose maintenant. Attention, je ne suis pas musicien, et je ne cherche qu’à vous préciser ce que j’énonce plus haut. Vous entendrez les changements de sonorités effectués progressivement, comme si les tirettes étaient manipulées manuellement, et verrez ces tirettes se déplacer lors de ces changements. Tout ceci a été enregistré en direct avec l’aide de mon pédalier et d’un peu de préparation des effets.
Voici le morceau. J’ai pensé qu’une seule note serait plus facile à jouer ce sera donc « One note samba » de A.C. Jobim… https://youtu.be/qUCyPt9Ty-Q
Je vous souhaite un bon dimanche. A bientôt ! |
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Chris60
Joined: 04 Apr 2019
Posts: 10
Location: Beauvais, France
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| Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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| gobe wrote: | | .. if it is possible to operate the drawbars with a midi controller .. |
Here is the translation in English for my last post...
I continue to discover my PA1000 and, on the way, I come across some peculiarities that are not documented. Here, for example, the MIDI messages sent and recognized by the PA1000, concerning the "DrawBars Organ" part. I have listed these codes in Decimal, to facilitate reading and reconciliation with the documentation. These codes concern the Up1 part (channel 0, 176 Decimal or B0 Hex ...). To adapt according to the desired channel!
These codes can be very useful to obtain things that can not be done natively on the instrument or that would require an exceptional dexterity!
For example, any musician who has already seen (or even strummed) a B3 knows that the transition from one sound to another using the harmonic drawbars can not be done instantaneously as a change of " Keyboard Set "on our PA1000. Even owners of a PA4x who have physical "drawbars" at their disposal, will find the changes of sound quite acrobatic. By sending these codes progressively from a midi system to the instrument, we will obtain in a single gesture (pressure on a pedal for example), moving the harmonic drawbars as if they were manipulated manually ... I will propose further, a very short example to give you a more precise idea of this effect.
Here is the list of codes that I could identify (in decimal):
176, 99, 2 > Command
176, 98, 0 > 16'
176, 6, 0 > Drawbar is in 0 position (Last nb to be set from 0 to 127
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 2 > 5' 1/3
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 1 > 8'
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 3 > 4'
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 4 > 2' 2/3
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 5 > 2'
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 8 > 1' 3/5
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 6 > 1' 1/3
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 7 > 1'
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 9 > Tone Hard
176, 6, 1
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 9 > Tone Mellow
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 16 > Percu On/Off
176, 6, 0 > Here 0 = "Off" (1 for "On')
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 12 > Volume Percu
176, 6, 31 > Here the volume is 31
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 13 > Length Percu
176, 6, 87 > here 87
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 11 > Percussion 4' On
176, 6, 2
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 11 > Percussion2' 2/3 On
176, 6, 1
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 19 > Command Leakage
176, 6, 1
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 20 > Level Value for Leakage
176, 6, 93
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 18 > Command for cliks level "Key Off"
176, 6, 28
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 10 > Command for cliks noise level "Key On"
176, 6, 39
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 15 > On/Off for clics "Key Off"
176, 6, 0
176, 99, 2
176, 98, 17 > Bouton On/Off for clics "Key On"
176, 6, 0
As you probably seen, the numbering of the drawbars in the messages does not correspond to their position on the instrument !
Here is an example of programming for a pedal, to obtain the simultaneous movement of two drawbars (4 'and 2') starting from 0 and stopping at 6 during an half second (525 milliseconds) (here in hexadecimal):
$ Intervale 15 > This command implies to wait 15 ms between two lines (35 x 15 ms = 525 ms)
b0, 63, 2 > The rest of the list is filled automatically by the MFC5 software
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 3
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 3
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 13
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 13
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 25
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 37
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 25
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 37
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 49
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 49
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 3
b0, 6, 5b
b0, 63, 2
b0, 62, 5
b0, 6, 5b
Do not be scared, there are ways to get these codes automaticallywithout any manual typing !!
The matérial and software I use are there: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hpGDpi-yYZYIzQeji-yWvJZ_HB5de_A9
Everything is said in the pdf document of this file, if you are interested, I am at your disposal .. (Sorry, this doc is in french !)
The list of commands above is one of the lists of commands that I used (in this case, there are 6) to record the demo song that I propose to you now. Be careful, I'm not a musician, and I'm just trying to clarify what I said above. You will hear the changes of sounds made gradually, as if the drawbars were manually slided, and will see these drawbars movement during these changes. All this was recorded live with the help of my pedal and a little preparation for the effects.
Here is the piece. I thought that one note would be easier to play so it will be "One note samba" by A.C. Jobim ... https://youtu.be/qUCyPt9Ty-Q
I wish you a good Sunday. See you soon ! |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Does anyone know if those codes can be programmed into a Korg NanoKontrol (original 9-slider version), for hard control of PA1000/PA700 drawbars? |
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Chris60
Joined: 04 Apr 2019
Posts: 10
Location: Beauvais, France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | | Does anyone know if those codes can be programmed into a Korg NanoKontrol (original 9-slider version), for hard control of PA1000/PA700 drawbars? |
Unfortunately, I dont have this hardware. In my configuration I send the codes with a specific program I wrote myself. Note that in the case of a drawbars hardware, it seems unneeded to send a delay between commands as I say. The delay will exist naturally with the mechanical action of each bar.
Regards, Christian.
_________________
Christian |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1843
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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[quote="Chris60"] | siebenhirter wrote: | | gobe wrote: | | .. if it is possible to operate the drawbars with a midi controller .. |
No, there is is no information in the manual that you can remotely control the slider functions of the drawbars. |
I am sorry about my mistake - what you discovered are the NRPN messages that are recognized for Drawbars as pointed out in the footnote of the midi implementation, which I unfortunately overlooked but was noticed by Scott: (*2: Drawbars settings, Sound parameters, Selection of SongBook Entries, Drum Kit Family settings.
Thank you for analyzing and sharing these controls.
Exact settings only are specified for songbook entries, but NRPNs are useable in same manner for drawbars: in decimal cc#99(MSB) always is set to "2", cc#98 is between "0" and "20", cc#06 is between "0" and "127" for volume and between "0" and "2" for switches.
How to send NRPN to Pa-Keyboards you will find in the manual (Selecting SongBook Entries via MIDI) or you can use control panel of MIDI-OX to send NRPN.
There's no easy way to teach you how to "program a button" and also NPRN/SysEx communication isn't for newbies. But it is possible to use SysExs instead NRPN like "F0 00 20 33 02 7f 01 00 pp pp vv vv F7" where pp pp is indicating NRPN parameter to change and vv vv is indicating the new value. And there are cheap solutions to send such messages with an DIY-Arduino-Controller.
*
That also can be done with Korgs nanocontrol (https://i.korg.com/uploads/Support/nanoKONTROL2_PG_E1_634479709631760000.pdf):
CC Number [0...127]: This specifies the control change number of the control change message that will be transmitted (with Knobs and Sliders)
_________________
kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Chris60
Joined: 04 Apr 2019
Posts: 10
Location: Beauvais, France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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| siebenhirter wrote: |
There's no easy way to teach you how to "program a button" and also NPRN/SysEx communication isn't for newbies. |
That why I posted the complete midi messages to send out to the PA to obtain an action.
In my post when you see :
176, 99, 2 > Command
176, 98, 0 > 16'
176, 6, 0 > Drawbar is in 0 position (Last nb to be set from 0 to 127
You dont have to know if it's RPN, control change or NRPN command. You just have to send all these bytes in that order ! More simple no ?!!
Thank you for your comment.
_________________
Christian |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | That also can be done with Korgs nanocontrol (https://i.korg.com/uploads/Support/nanoKONTROL2_PG_E1_634479709631760000.pdf):
CC Number [0...127]: This specifies the control change number of the control change message that will be transmitted (with Knobs and Sliders) |
I think the problem is that the NanoKontrols only support a single CC command parameter for a slider (where the slider adjusts the final 0-127 value parameter), and for this to work, you'd have to be able to enter a sequence of multiple CC command parameters (or a sysex string). |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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[quote="Chris60"] | siebenhirter wrote: |
In my post when you see :
176, 99, 2 > Command
176, 98, 0 > 16'
176, 6, 0 > Drawbar is in 0 position (Last nb to be set from 0 to 127
You dont have to know if it's RPN, control change or NRPN command. You just have to send all these bytes in that order ! More simple no ?!! |
Maybe more simple if you're using the software you wrote, but maybe not more simple if you're trying to find a way to program hardware to get physical sliders! Since I'm not aware of any box of sliders that will do this, I think one would have to use sliders that send CC (NanoKontrol or others, there are numerous to choose from), then some other device (MIDI Solutions Event Processor? Borne MIDI Translator on a PC/Mac? An app like Keystage on an iPad?) to take that CC and turn it into the NPRN commands the PA1000 wants to see. At that point, you WILL need to know "if it's RPN, control change or NRPN command" (or how to convert it to sysex as siebenhirter was saying) in order to know what goes where when you program your intermediate device to do the translation.
So congratulations on your sleuthing and thanks for the valuable info! It may still take some more effort, though, to arrive at a working bunch of sliders for live performance.
BTW, the youtube link in your post is not working anymore, and the googlde drive link to your custom program and associated docs only links to the docs, no program. |
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Chris60
Joined: 04 Apr 2019
Posts: 10
Location: Beauvais, France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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| Scott wrote: |
Maybe more simple if you're using the software you wrote, but maybe not more simple if you're trying to find a way to program hardware to get physical sliders! |
You're right !!! For me it's the simple way but can be not the right way for commercial product !
Note that in my software, I don't have to look at the messages contain. I programmed a "learning" mode to get the messages from the instrument to build the list of messages to send by my program when I want, by a pedal action...
For the link to Youtube I think the problem is the file is "private"...
Here it is another copy : http://christian.feniou.pagesperso-orange.fr/MP4/one-note-samba.mp4 (not an exceptional artistic performance !!)
Then another interesting code is the joystick Y movement.
It is :
b0, 1, 0
b0, 1 7f
b0, 1, 0
These messages sent to the PA, with a 100 ms delay between them (absolutely needed), commands the Leslie speed. I also use them with my pedals because it's more easy than the joystick to commute the Leslie while playing !
_________________
Christian |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1843
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Drawbars PA1000 |
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| Chris60 wrote: | | ... but can be not the right way for commercial product ..... |
If Pa1000 sends its NRPNs messages via MIDI-Out simply notify that messages with a MIDI monitor (eg MIDI-OX) and look for MIDI controllers with 14-bit resolution sliders and buttons (like Roland A-800 Pro, Behringer BCR/BCF2000, Novation Remote25SL MK2, Zero SL MK2 etc) to be used as drawbars.
With Korg nanocontrol (the older one with 9 sliders) as simplier solution NRPN can be sent with setting each slider to CC#6 and for the nine footages set the pairs of the two superimposed buttons (button1/2) in left of the sliders to CC#99/CC#98 (NRPNs MSB/LSB) with following parameters (decimal): 2/0, 2//1, 2/2, 2/3, 2/4, 2/5, 2/6, 2/7, 2/8 (as analized by Chris60). You also can try this with control panel of Midi-OX (send cc#99 with 2, cc#98 as described from Chris06, cc#6 between 0 and 127) and see the reaction with Pa-drawbars (dont forget to assign the channels for transmission).
The buttons of nanocontrol assign to to control change message for momentary or toggle, because does not matter in case you set the "on value" to same as "off value", because only it is important to transmit the parameter of the NRPNs MSB/LSB. The nine sliders - all with control change number 6 - assign to values from 0 to 127.
At least use this scene for footage volume and make a second scene for settings of remaining parameters that you need for the drawbars (in same manner as above).
Now if you use the 3rd row of Nanocontrol and press button1 + button 2 + move slider to the middle you have set 4'-drawbar to a value of approximately 64; do the same with 1st row (button1 + button2 + move slider to maximum) you have set 16'-drawbar to 127. It also ok only to use button2 + slider because button1 still is remaining "2" - of course only if you haven't sent another NRPN in between (e.g. to select the songbook entry via NRPN).
Data transmitted:
4th row of Nano: pressed button 1: MSB of NRPN 99 set to 2
pressed button 2: LSB of NRPN 98 set to 3
slider to middle: MSB of Data Entry CC#6 = approx 64
1st row of Nano: pressed button 1: MSB of NRPN 99 set to 2 (not mandatory as remaining from above)
pressed button 2: LSB of NRPN 98 set to 0
slider to max: MSB of Data Entry CC#6 = 127
As NRPNs use values of 14-bit (0 to 16,383) it is sufficient to send the first seven bits (0, 128, 256, 512 ... 16256), because this gradation is fine enough for the digital drawbars. So that can be done with simple 7-bit controllers as usual.
NRPN CC#99 (MSB) is always "2", CC#98 (LSB) is 0 (16'), 1 (8'), 2 (5 1/3'), 3 (4'), ..........8 (1 3/5'), DataEntry CC#6 (MSB) is between 0, 1 .... 127 (14-bit: 0, 128 ..... 16.256).
| Chris60 wrote: | | ... .b0, 1, 0 - b0, b0, 1, 7f - b0,1, 0 commands the Leslie speed.... |
That is the Modulation-Wheel (CC#01 min/max) - if assigned as modulation source (AMS) it selects for Slow/Fast of Rotary speaker.
_________________
kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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