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How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: How far have we come? Roland JV-1080 vs Kronos HD1 Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
The HD1 engine in the Kronos officially supports 140 voices of polyphony. That's single voices. Layering two voices (or using stereo voices) drops that down to 70. Layering four voices in layers drops that down to 35 voices. In a dual HD1 program, that gives you a total of four envelope generators and five LFOs. There are two filters in dual mode, which offer either 2 or 4 pole operation, bandpass etc. Routing options can only be specified for the whole patch - it's not possible to route individual oscillators to different outputs or effects (not exactly true):

An HD1 program can send all OSCs to output 1/2, which is a stereo pair. Each OSC can be panned hard left or right. The IFX routing allows you to tap various busses, including 1/2 or 1 and 2 separately. Therefore, each OSC can be routed to 6 different outputs and/or 12 (IFX) effects.

Further, both MFX sends are per OSC, allowing even more routing options. With 2 TFX, this brings FX count up to 16.

Kronos FX:
1) daisy-chained in any order (single, static on JV)
2) there are many more types
3) higher quality
4) numerous programmable parameters.

It's easy to see Kronos FX structure far surpasses the JV, and even my Integra, and almost every other rompler out there (VAST being its closest contender).



The JV1080 from 1994 has 64 note polyphony, which on paper looks drastically less. But a voice on the JV can consist of four tones [Kronos voice/OSC has 8 samples] - and each tone has its own sample, two envelope generators, two LFOs and filter. Effects can all be routed for each tone, so a single patch can go to four different outputs or effects (vs 8 outputs and/or 16 effects for Kronos). That essentially means that for a single (dual) HD1 program vs a single JV1080 program:


Number of simultaneous samples: 140 x 8 x 2 = 1120 x 2 (Kronos) vs 256 (JV1080)

Number of LFOs: 5 (Kronos) vs 10 (JV1080)

Number of Filters: 2 (Kronos) vs 4 (JV1080)

Number of EGs: 2 x 2 (Kronos) vs 8 (JV1080)



I commented in bold as is seemed easiest to make my points that way.

The JV series has a great reputation. Imo, the sample content still hold its own to this day, and doesn't sound as dated as compared to, say the Kurzweil sample content. The Integra inherited almost all of Roland's rompler legacy, and despite several shortcomings, is a great box as well.

Not counting sample content, the Kronos rompler and VA capabilities still dwarf the Integra and JV series. The Kronos can always refresh its sample content. It can even steal the souls of the entire JV/Integra and the Motif series (and any and all other romplers, including software) as far as sample content goes, and stream them all from within one Kronos. That's no small statement.

The one major thing missing in the Kronos compared to its former contenders are scripting -- Roland's SuperNatural and Yamaha's Expanded Articulation.


Last edited by psionic311 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not to detract from this excellent A vs B discussion.

I route my FA to Kronos audio in. With that I can add Kronos FX, after stripping the FA of FX that aren't stellar.

If/when I get the MODX I would also route it similarly.

Keyboardists have been mixing gear for decades as we all know.

A 1080 would be a bargain to add to Kronos for more sound personality.
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KK
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ultimate Kronos spec is the total number of pages in its three main manuals (PG + OG + VL) : 1189 + 305 + 270 = 1764 pages. Until a new digital instrument beats this, I consider the Kronos the greatest synth ever. Laughing
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KK wrote:
The ultimate Kronos spec is the total number of pages in its three main manuals (PG + OG + VL) : 1189 + 305 + 270 = 1764 pages. Until a new digital instrument beats this, I consider the Kronos the greatest synth ever. Laughing


Ha, that's great! I think Guiness records would agree!

Personally, my appreciation keeps growing all the time. Sometimes I feel like I'm like a broken record, other times I feel like a scientist with constant new evidence to support the prevailing theory that the Kronos is the shiznit.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
The jV1080 also offers definable structures, ring modulation and frequency cross modulation - features that HD1 doesn't offer but can be achieved using Mod 7 (with lower polyphony).


I would like to recall a post I did some months ago, about the possibilities to send a Prog output (whatever engine, even HD-1) into the external Audio input of AL-1 engine.
And so, its possible to send the HD-1 signal into a multimode filter and its ability to offer a morphing filter.

Here is this post :
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=111590&highlight=

(on that point of view, the Oasys was even pore powerful, with its 8 outputs and 4 inputs. )

I don't see many people who use the possibility to hard-ptach the 4 audio outputs into the 2 audio inputs. Thanks to Combi mode and its routing versatility, its then possible to route some combi tracks in some other combi tracks.

Doing so, by sending an AL-1 prog into the audio input of another AL-1 prog its possible to get two 24db/oct filters in serial and so, create a 48 db/oct !!
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janrhansen



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure you are wrong about the Polyphony of the JV1080. In all my 30+ years of using various synths, digital instruments polyphony is almost always defined as the max number of notes sounding at once you can achieve when using a sound using 1 oscillator. the moment you turn on an osc more your polyphony is halved.

Most polyphonic analog synths also have a max number of polyphony and work the same way.

The funny thing is however, when you look at old analog Organs they almos all can put multiple sounds together and if you have a couple (or 3) logs to put on each keybed + pedals they will ALL sound together .. not very musical, but makes a lot of noise Smile
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I was definitely wrong about the polyphony. I relied on Wikipedia, which probably had some of the terms wrong. The manual wasn't much clearer either.

I guess the main thing I keep wondering is how custom VLSI (very large scale integrated circuits) compare today to commodity CPUs? What would the kronos be like in terms of power if they had custom chips for each of the engines? Probably prohibitively expensive to design for a company like Korg, but that's essentially what Yamaha have done for years, with things like their OPL3 chips and AWM2.

Having a synth that had 128 notes of polyphony - per engine - concurrently wouldn't be out of the question ... And that really would be a genuine competitor to soft synths.
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