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Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:16 pm Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:
I have asked this question about 10 times without an answer:
Is is better to record Kronos programs in your DAW 'dry ' or without Kronos FX ? And then add FX to your instrument tracks just prior to your 1st mix ?
Or just record Kronos Programs/midi instruments with full FX into your DAW. ? At which point, that would be an audio file with FX. And another audio master file or final mix would be created later.
There is a reason why have this question, but will hold that part if I get an answer to the above
I'm not sure there's a standard one-size-fits-all answer to this question.
Maybe that helps?
thanks, that does frame the challenge for me. I guess I have to dive in and commit to trial and error.
FX are a big deal for Kronos programs. Take the importance of guitar tone as an example. Without FX, the guitar part isn't inspiring. With layered FX, suddenly the lead guitar part is a good performance.
And there are master FX.
Reason why I am laboring this topic, is that when I make audio files of audio files and get to a 3rd generation on the master track, I hear a drop in quality. On some instruments. I think FX application is the culprit. I know , in theory, with Flac and lossless, this is not likely. But I hear it and F&^%, I like quality on every instrument.
Which is 1 strong reason I am hanging onto SEQ recording for my multi track songs. I can accept IFX's on programs, or remove in SEQ. I can share the FX chain on several instruments. I can tone down Master FX.
I am able to workaround every track to my satisfaction, when I am in final mix.
I suppose I have my own process, but SEQ or standalone recording in Kronos is cool and it works very well. There are some limits and I bump into them every 3rd song. eventually I hope to have a hybrid recording approach with my DAW and the SEQ. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:33 pm Post subject:
kronoSphere wrote:
Hello Greg,
I have never be able to enter in the"world" of Cubase. I just don't like its conception. There are big DAW sequencers that are very powerful but are not instinctively easy to use. And there are also litlle sequencers that are easy to use but with to many limits to be usefull.
During years I have searching the best suitable for me and I have found it.
For exemple : in the field of the graphic softwares, Photoshop is very powerful AND ALSO very instinctively usable. All is made to make the user confident with it.
1)And, (don't make me wrong it's not an advertising) the Magix SEQUOIA DAW sequencer is a wondeful thing. Absolutely. The lingk with the Kronos in USB is so simple and... ... and the synchro also.
And the very very big adventage is the automation tools so simple to use.
2)And, last point : The big advantage is concerning the effects is that many plug is effects sound different and they render each track with a different clarity. Then the tracks are not "uniformised" they have each their personnality
hey brother, good points. I am starting to see the potential with Magix.
I am impatient , not much for tweaking, and viewing 45 minute youTubes for an answer to a simple question.
I know Kronos is not DAW friendly, so its good to read that it can be simple with USB.
2) I share this gripe. The FX application is usually to bring out a character in the instrument. If I only performed 2 or 3 instruments, I can easily fix levels or EQ when mixing . But not everything plays/sounds good together with default FX. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
thanks, that does frame the challenge for me. I guess I have to dive in and commit to trial and error.
FX are a big deal for Kronos programs. Take the importance of guitar tone as an example. Without FX, the guitar part isn't inspiring. With layered FX, suddenly the lead guitar part is a good performance.
And there are master FX.
Reason why I am laboring this topic, is that when I make audio files of audio files and get to a 3rd generation on the master track, I hear a drop in quality. On some instruments. I think FX application is the culprit. I know , in theory, with Flac and lossless, this is not likely. But I hear it and F&^%, I like quality on every instrument.
Which is 1 strong reason I am hanging onto SEQ recording for my multi track songs. I can accept IFX's on programs, or remove in SEQ. I can share the FX chain on several instruments. I can tone down Master FX.
I am able to workaround every track to my satisfaction, when I am in final mix.
I suppose I have my own process, but SEQ or standalone recording in Kronos is cool and it works very well. There are some limits and I bump into them every 3rd song. eventually I hope to have a hybrid recording approach with my DAW and the SEQ.
Funny, we're coming at this from different directions. You're trying to move toward the PC and DAW as recording tools, and I'm trying to move away from them and toward the Kronos! The journey has been slow for me- guess it's a comfort thing and just trying to internalize the Kronos UI to the point that it's second nature rather than wondering "where the heck is that setting again?"
But I'm still working toward it. Working with a general purpose computer for audio recording is fraught with problems that a dedicated, purpose-built computer (like Kronos) doesn't have and I think the former is just going to keep getting worse. Especially with modern operating systems like Win 10 or the current OSX - they are continuously moving targets and its getting harder to opt out of updates. Feels like a constant chase to keep everything running smoothly.
What limitations do you hit every third song? I assume it's either polyphony or number of tracks?
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:28 pm Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:
thanks, that does frame the challenge for me. I guess I have to dive in and commit to trial and error.
FX are a big deal for Kronos programs. Take the importance of guitar tone as an example. Without FX, the guitar part isn't inspiring. With layered FX, suddenly the lead guitar part is a good performance.
And there are master FX.
Reason why I am laboring this topic, is that when I make audio files of audio files and get to a 3rd generation on the master track, I hear a drop in quality. On some instruments. I think FX application is the culprit. I know , in theory, with Flac and lossless, this is not likely. But I hear it and F&^%, I like quality on every instrument.
Which is 1 strong reason I am hanging onto SEQ recording for my multi track songs. I can accept IFX's on programs, or remove in SEQ. I can share the FX chain on several instruments. I can tone down Master FX.
I am able to workaround every track to my satisfaction, when I am in final mix.
I suppose I have my own process, but SEQ or standalone recording in Kronos is cool and it works very well. There are some limits and I bump into them every 3rd song. eventually I hope to have a hybrid recording approach with my DAW and the SEQ.
Funny, we're coming at this from different directions. You're trying to move toward the PC and DAW as recording tools, and I'm trying to move away from them and toward the Kronos! The journey has been slow for me- guess it's a comfort thing and just trying to internalize the Kronos UI to the point that it's second nature rather than wondering "where the heck is that setting again?"
But I'm still working toward it. Working with a general purpose computer for audio recording is fraught with problems that a dedicated, purpose-built computer (like Kronos) doesn't have and I think the former is just going to keep getting worse. Especially with modern operating systems like Win 10 or the current OSX - they are continuously moving targets and its getting harder to opt out of updates. Feels like a constant chase to keep everything running smoothly.
What limitations do you hit every third song? I assume it's either polyphony or number of tracks?
good discussion. FWIW, Mac person here. I am sure audio recording tools will get more complicated, not less. That is a concern.
Yes, I have griped forever about polyphony when recording. I also run out of FX slots. The number is 12. Sure there are master FX, but thats not a shared solution for every instrument in a 16 track recording.
I finally got a good lead guitar sound on my latest song. " 100 Beating Hearts ". I had to pile up 5 IFX on the guitar program . As guitar players will agree, tone is a big deal. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
good discussion. FWIW, Mac person here. I am sure audio recording tools will get more complicated, not less. That is a concern.
Yes, I have griped forever about polyphony when recording. I also run out of FX slots. The number is 12. Sure there are master FX, but thats not a shared solution for every instrument in a 16 track recording.
I finally got a good lead guitar sound on my latest song. " 100 Beating Hearts ". I had to pile up 5 IFX on the guitar program . As guitar players will agree, tone is a big deal.
So what are you doing today?
Guess you could copy the song to a free song slot in case you decide you need to go back and change the tone later. Then solo the guitar track and bounce it to an audio track with FX by recording L/R out to that track. Then free up the FX slots it used as well as the MIDI track.
Same strategy for polyphony.
Granted, my experience doing this on Kronos is pretty small. Limited to little experiments to see how things work as opposed to actually hitting the limits while trying to finish a song. But seems like it should work.
Feel like too much of a workaround?
You can hit similar constraints in the DAW world. Not a hard limit on number of FX, but as you keep adding FX, CPU utilization increases, and eventually you'll start crackling and popping. Similar strategy there, I guess. Bounce it down to a track with FX baked into it. A lot of DAWs have a freeze or bounce track type feature that automates this - it renders the track with insert FX to a new audio track, bypasses the original track and FX to free CPU. It would be a nice feature for the Kronos, really, some kind of MIDI track freeze. (Maybe its already there and I haven't found it yet haha).
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:51 pm Post subject:
thank you for the step by step. That looks like 2 hours of work. Just the same you gave me the good idea
I can take your steps, and have a pre-cooked audio track. For example, I have a good FX loaded lead guitar tone and can use it in future songs.
With that, I will do a A vs B compare. IOW, my guitar midi track vs the guitar audio version.
IOW, if I do this, I won't feel like I am re-inventing the wheel on every song.
Keep this programming separate from my Song creation process. I will let you know how it works out. I might write another rock song to follow up my 100 Beating Hearts, since I plan to build a PlayList on the genre. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Please do let me know how it works out and any tweaks you make to it. As well as any other SEQ workflow tips you might have. You've obviously had a lot of success with it!
It does sound like two hours worth of work but I think it's mostly just head space. I mean, I think once a workflow like that is internalized, those steps could be executed very quickly... or in not much more time than the song length (the Kronos can't bounce/render faster than real time, can it?)
As for me the SEQ has mostly been a scratch pad thus far. I should commit to doing complete song with it and I think I'd internalize the UI more. After two years, I might be at the point where I can stop getting distracted by every shiny thing in the Kronos along the way too. XD
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:05 pm Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
Please do let me know how it works out and any tweaks you make to it. As well as any other SEQ workflow tips you might have. You've obviously had a lot of success with it!
It does sound like two hours worth of work but I think it's mostly just head space. I mean, I think once a workflow like that is internalized, those steps could be executed very quickly... or in not much more time than the song length (the Kronos can't bounce/render faster than real time, can it?)
As for me the SEQ has mostly been a scratch pad thus far. I should commit to doing complete song with it and I think I'd internalize the UI more. After two years, I might be at the point where I can stop getting distracted by every shiny thing in the Kronos along the way too. XD
thank you for the compliment ! Mike Conway is 1000x more successful with Kronos recording. Mike has several YT's.
My work flow process is tedious. I don't quantize. I simply can't get quantize to do anything.
I work backwards creatively. Typically I have a chord progression I like, then I add a drum pattern and tempo that clicks. I copy programs with FX into a new song all the time.
I will try to keep it mechanical, as the creative process is its own animal.
Once those 2 basic instruments are close, I jam in a bass line.
Lets assume I now have 40 measure of a rough idea with 3 instruments.
from there I might 'clean up' timing problems, note mistakes, measure by
measure, instrument by instrument. I 'solo' the bass part and the drum part to confirm a tight groove. I also 'solo ' my piano [ or guitar] with the drum part.
I think this might be also called 'section recording '. I might swap out the drum kit or bass program, etc, to make the song different.
By now, I have saved the Song. Very important to save your work frequently.
If I am undecided on Song structure or if there are other problems, I have 2 Song versions saved. So if I blow up the song at measure 100, at least I can circle back to another Song file that had 40 measures. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
... Working with a general purpose computer for audio recording is fraught with problems that a dedicated, purpose-built computer (like Kronos) doesn't have and I think the former is just going to keep getting worse. Especially with modern operating systems like Win 10 or the current OSX - they are continuously moving targets and its getting harder to opt out of updates. Feels like a constant chase to keep everything running smoothly.
You cannot just turn an ordinary computer into audio workstation.
it’s pointless, Troubled waters ahead no matter what you do.
To achieve the desired results you should start from a scratch.
I am giving an example regarding Macs ( up to Mojave OS ):
1. Upgrade hardware.
2. Install a FRESH copy of OS.
( You MUST not launch any application bundled with OS ! and all Audio Apps have to be downloaded from Apple Store on another MAC )
3. Install Xcode ( needed for some dev commands tools )
4. Disable SIP ( System Integrity Protection ) globally.
5. Strip down OS from bloatware and demons/agents.
6. A careful choice of AU plugins and audio software ( because if there is a crash, one of them will be a culprit, Logic pro X on its own is a very stable platform )
The Result ?
A such machine is able to leave Kronos in a dust ( in terms of stability and power ). it’s not preferred option for Live Performers, but the for the rest is the only way to go.
I have 12-core Mac Pro fully upgraded to MAX ( Mojave OS installed on M.2 PCIe 2TB SSD, and libraries on 4TB SSD in SATA drive bay ), and have NONE crashes, on Kronos I had 2 boot failures, ~5 freezes/crashes, plus occasional but constant stuck notes. But above all no clues to causes. On my Mac if anything happen I would pinpoint the exact cause.
My (OLD!) super audio workstation under the Korg Kronos:
I work backwards creatively. Typically I have a chord progression I like, then I add a drum pattern and tempo that clicks. I copy programs with FX into a new song all the time.
Thanks for the tips! All else equal, I prefer to start with drums (or a real acoustic guitar). Drums are kind of a stumbling block for me on the Kronos. I guess I just haven't found my workflow for them yet. The included patterns are great but they're pretty repetitive, and they're a bit like hunt and peck to find one that suits the mood. Karma can be good but I feel like I spend too much time getting it to do what I want and sometimes lose the inspiration. I'm also utterly perplexed about why all the best kits with the most work put into them don't follow the general midi standard for note mapping. Makes it difficult to drive them with something external...
So I've been experimenting with mapping drum sounds to the nanopad via the chord pad feature, and using loop recording. It's showing promise.
Poseidon wrote:
The Result ?
A such machine is able to leave Kronos in a dust ( in terms of stability and power ). it’s not preferred option for Live Performers, but the for the rest is the only way to go.
I have 12-core Mac Pro fully upgraded to MAX ( Mojave OS installed on M.2 PCIe 2TB SSD, and libraries on 4TB SSD in SATA drive bay ), and have NONE crashes, on Kronos I had 2 boot failures, ~5 freezes/crashes, plus occasional but constant stuck notes. But above all no clues to causes. On my Mac if anything happen I would pinpoint the exact cause.
Sure, you can definitely stabilize a DAW on a general purpose computer. I've been using DAWs for (gasp!) decades now, and obviously that's what you'll find in any pro studio. I imagine I'll always maintain one. For example, Kronos is really not well suited for recording multiple live musicians with only 2 analog ins, no phantom power, etc.
I do feel like it's kind of a chase though. Any change to your computer could break your DAW and send you down a rabbit hole of troubleshooting. And nowadays, things are constantly changing. You almost have to opt in for updates to keep things secure and for bug fixes, unless you're really planning to keep the machine off the internet.
I haven't really experienced any issues like that with the K. In ~2 years I have never had a crash, boot failure, or stuck note. Or really any problem at all, other than the general confusion about where to find some setting or get it to behave a certain way. Am I the exception to the rule?
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:31 pm Post subject:
[quote="Lightbringer"]
GregC wrote:
Thanks for the tips! All else equal, I prefer to start with drums (or a real acoustic guitar). Drums are kind of a stumbling block for me on the Kronos. I guess I just haven't found my workflow for them yet. The included patterns are great but they're pretty repetitive, and they're a bit like hunt and peck to find one that suits the mood. Karma can be good but I feel like I spend too much time getting it to do what I want and sometimes lose the inspiration. I'm also utterly perplexed about why all the best kits with the most work put into them don't follow the general midi standard for note mapping. Makes it difficult to drive them with something external...
So I've been experimenting with mapping drum sounds to the nanopad via the chord pad feature, and using loop recording. It's showing promise.
e
I am nuts on Kronos drums. You know the story, drums make the song.
I think its important to find a groove. I always need a drum part to be my time keeper.
For most of my songs, I use 3 separate midi tracks for drums. I often use 2 diff patterns for a song. My 3rd midi drum part is for cymbals and a few simple rolls. I also run 2 drum kits together, and use keyboard zone to exclude noisey percussion like too many bells or claps.
I also have a drummer friend in my song 'jury'. He approves of my approach and has good suggestions.
I know many of the patterns sound 'electronic ' . I try to over come that and drive to a more live feel.
My songs frequently have stops, intros, distinct endings and transitions. My drum work has to either support this or instigate it.
Some folks are opposed to 1 measure stops, and are opposed to an 8 measure changeup. I make this work by staying in tempo.
My last song, 100 Beating Hearts has most of the above steps.
I haven't even mentioned using Karma . Another level of variation. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
... Working with a general purpose computer for audio recording is fraught with problems that a dedicated, purpose-built computer (like Kronos) doesn't have and I think the former is just going to keep getting worse. Especially with modern operating systems like Win 10 or the current OSX - they are continuously moving targets and its getting harder to opt out of updates. Feels like a constant chase to keep everything running smoothly.
You cannot just turn an ordinary computer into audio workstation.
it’s pointless, Troubled waters ahead no matter what you do.
To achieve the desired results you should start from a scratch.
I am giving an example regarding Macs ( up to Mojave OS ):
1. Upgrade hardware.
2. Install a FRESH copy of OS.
( You MUST not launch any application bundled with OS ! and all Audio Apps have to be downloaded from Apple Store on another MAC )
3. Install Xcode ( needed for some dev commands tools )
4. Disable SIP ( System Integrity Protection ) globally.
5. Strip down OS from bloatware and demons/agents.
6. A careful choice of AU plugins and audio software ( because if there is a crash, one of them will be a culprit, Logic pro X on its own is a very stable platform )
The Result ?
A such machine is able to leave Kronos in a dust ( in terms of stability and power ). it’s not preferred option for Live Performers, but the for the rest is the only way to go.
I have 12-core Mac Pro fully upgraded to MAX ( Mojave OS installed on M.2 PCIe 2TB SSD, and libraries on 4TB SSD in SATA drive bay ), and have NONE crashes, on Kronos I had 2 boot failures, ~5 freezes/crashes, plus occasional but constant stuck notes. But above all no clues to causes. On my Mac if anything happen I would pinpoint the exact cause.
My (OLD!) super audio workstation under the Korg Kronos:
This has got to be one of the worst posts I have seen on this forum.
Do you really think that all the Mac audio users in the world do these totally unnecessary things?
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 1279 Location: Pale blue dot
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:41 pm Post subject:
IMHO, the new Fantom is, I won't say copied, but certainly inspired by the Kronos. I see many similarities and not so many innovations. It seems to have the same features, just more of each. More usb ports, more outputs, more cpus, more more more...I can do everything I want so far so it won't replace the Kronos.
Now, if I didn't have a Kronos, it would be another story.
Joined: 31 May 2007 Posts: 1279 Location: Pale blue dot
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:49 pm Post subject:
Mike Conway wrote:
I have been playing with the Deepmind so much, that I bought a second one. On first play, the Deepmind 12 is not a stunning choice. Because I like to tweak, I can get sounds out of it that most people can't. I recorded this level too hot, but listen to these sounds:
I watched your videos with interest in the past. Even more so lately now that I got myself a DM12... I should receive it in the next 10 days or so. Ordered it 3 months ago. I really like the sounds, the pads, the whole architecture. I'll get that and the Behringer Model D.
This has got to be one of the worst posts I have seen on this forum.
Do you really think that all the Mac audio users in the world do these totally unnecessary things?
Total rubbish!
If Korg did it to Kronos, why not Mac users to their Macs ?
It is true, this approach is not for an average users,
it is solely for those who want to squeeze every drop of juice from their mac.
That way the latency is the Lowest, more CPU threads are yours up for grabs, Peripheral busses are free for heavy audio related traffic, and the system become more stable.
I don’t call it unnecessary things.
If you could only compare the activity log, optimized to ordinary mac, perhaps your opinion would change.
The post is simply a REMINDER, that dedicated audio workstation like Kronos can be built on a Mac, and that the keyboard based workstation are more stable is a MYTH. There is only no portability factor.
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