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Pa1000 v Pa700 v Yamaha SX900 v Yamaha SX700
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:32 pm    Post subject: Pa1000 v Pa700 v Yamaha SX900 v Yamaha SX700 Reply with quote

Got a chance today to play all the keyboards in the thread title plus a Pa4X.

Starting off with the SX700, Yamaha have definitely upped their game with regards to build quality, materials, layout and the menu system. As you would expect with a Yamaha the Piano sounds were all bright crystal clear. I also tried brass, woodwind, organs, strings, synths and guitars all were pretty good and if you are moving up from a lesser Yamaha model then the sounds should be pretty familiar. Switching to Style play mode and getting the auto accompaniment working all the pop, ballad, blues and jazz styles I tried were all vastly superior to the S770 I played back to back with a Korg couple of years ago. Changing variations were generally smooth and then the first problem, going from Var4 to Ending 3 in a Style, it produced a very marked and abrupt change and a large increase in volume, not good. Looking at the Menu system and it was immediately obvious that they have been using Korg as the system to replicate with there being a lot of soi ilarities and it was the first Yamaha that I have found that it is easy to navigate around.

Moving over to the SX900 and the only way you can really tell them apart is by the model number emblazoned on the rear. There are more voices and styles and the sound quality is a bit better all round. I checked it out as per the SX700 and had the same thing happen with the Style variation to the ending, so again not good.

The keybed feel of both Yamaha’s was very good and easily played close to the rear of the keys, both were better than the price equivalent Korg.

Then onto the Korg Pa700, a keyboard that I know well, very good instrument sounds which were superior to the SX700 in all classes except pianos where Yamaha have the edge. Styles were varied with smooth transition between variations and endings. I checked the Eq settings which were off and know from experience that with them set up correctly the sound quality takes a massive leap up in tone quality, so another plus for the Korg’s.

The Korg Pa1000 is not a keyboard that I have played much, it is similar to the Pa700 but includes aftertouch, vocoder, more Styles and Sounds. It has the same menu system as the Pa700 hence with being used to it navigation is quick and easy. Here in the UK the 1000 has a premium over the 700 of about £500 but its extras would not induce me to upgrade, I would bypass the 1000 and go straight to the 4X.

Conclusions.
Both Yamaha arrangers are vastly superior to the previous S775 and S975 models but to me the are both inferior to the price equivalent Korg's. That said it is what matters to potential buyers that counts so please if you not a Korg owner and are looking to upgrade from a Yamaha do no expect an SX to be like the E, EW or S series that you may have since the SX menu system is radically different to those other series models and you will have a steep learning curve with the SX so you might as well test out the Korg that is at your price point in addition to the SX.

THEN
I had a play on a Pa4X and the difference in Sound tone and Style content alone is worth the extra premium over a Pa1000, it is an astounding keyboard and in the hands of someone far more capable than I then superb output tonal content is possible with the Pa4X. The model that I played actually had the additional content that a well known keyboardist has produced for their own Pa4X and the quality of the Registrations and Song content, well I can only dream of being partly as good as the guy who created the presets.
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Pa1000 v Pa700 v Yamaha SX900 v Yamaha SX700 Reply with quote

Wow, cool! A comparative thread!

Biggles wrote:
Got a chance today to play all the keyboards in the thread title plus a Pa4X.

Starting off with the SX700, Yamaha have definitely upped their game with regards to build quality, materials, layout and the menu system. As you would expect with a Yamaha the Piano sounds were all bright crystal clear. I also tried brass, woodwind, organs, strings, synths and guitars all were pretty good and if you are moving up from a lesser Yamaha model then the sounds should be pretty familiar.

Looking at the Menu system and it was immediately obvious that they have been using Korg as the system to replicate with there being a lot of soi ilarities and it was the first Yamaha that I have found that it is easy to navigate around.


So, aside from the piano, what was the quality of the sound compared to the Korgs? That was the first thing that blew me away with my Pa, I'd never heard sounds that had so much life and realism to it, esp the drums, brass and woodwinds and bass. The way you describe it sounds like the quality was what you were familiar with from past Yamahas, so no noticeable increase in sound quality from what you're used to?

So you found past Yamahas more difficult to learn than the Korg Pa? I love my Pa1000 but find it a daunting task to learn all the ins and outs. I'm surprised Yamaha would revamp their way of doing things, that's always a draw for users of previous generations to mostly know their way around a newer board. They probably had to, Yamaha has a deserved reputation for not being user friendly. I wish Korg would also take the leap and re-design the whole system to be more user friendly.

Biggles wrote:

The keybed feel of both Yamaha’s was very good and easily played close to the rear of the keys, both were better than the price equivalent Korg.


This, and this alone, would be my temptation if I ever buy a new arranger. For me it's absolutely the weakest point of the Pa1000, the amount of pressure needed close to the rear of the keys is very noticeable to me.


Biggles wrote:
Then onto the Korg Pa700, a keyboard that I know well, very good instrument sounds which were superior to the SX700 in all classes except pianos where Yamaha have the edge. Styles were varied with smooth transition between variations and endings. I checked the Eq settings which were off and know from experience that with them set up correctly the sound quality takes a massive leap up in tone quality, so another plus for the Korg’s.

The Korg Pa1000 is not a keyboard that I have played much, it is similar to the Pa700 but includes aftertouch, vocoder, more Styles and Sounds. It has the same menu system as the Pa700 hence with being used to it navigation is quick and easy. Here in the UK the 1000 has a premium over the 700 of about £500 but its extras would not induce me to upgrade, I would bypass the 1000 and go straight to the 4X.


Good to hear the Pa has better sounds!

Besides the differences you noted, the Pa1000 also has:
- more than twice the memory for user samples,
- top panel volume and fx control for voice/guitar (also controls line in volume),
- USB port on top panel,
- harmonizer,
- upper/lower scanner switch for reading chords above and below the split point,
- 2 speakers vs 1 speaker per side, 33 watts per side vs 25 watts,
- screen that tilts up (very useful),
- 2GB of sound vs 1GB, apparently most of this is for another large piano,
- dj style slider for dual sequencer/mp3 playback.

IF I needed to buy again and could afford it, I would definitely buy the Pa1000 over the Pa700. I mostly appreciate the aftertouch, more user sample memory, the top panel controls for harmonizer, and tilt-up screen.


Biggles wrote:
Conclusions.
Both Yamaha arrangers are vastly superior to the previous S775 and S975 models but to me the are both inferior to the price equivalent Korg's. That said it is what matters to potential buyers that counts so please if you not a Korg owner and are looking to upgrade from a Yamaha do no expect an SX to be like the E, EW or S series that you may have since the SX menu system is radically different to those other series models and you will have a steep learning curve with the SX so you might as well test out the Korg that is at your price point in addition to the SX.

THEN
I had a play on a Pa4X and the difference in Sound tone and Style content alone is worth the extra premium over a Pa1000, it is an astounding keyboard and in the hands of someone far more capable than I then superb output tonal content is possible with the Pa4X. The model that I played actually had the additional content that a well known keyboardist has produced for their own Pa4X and the quality of the Registrations and Song content, well I can only dream of being partly as good as the guy who created the presets.


I'm confused here. I thought the bulk of the samples were nearly identical across the line from the Pa700 to the Pa4x. What is the sound quality difference you mentioned beside the increased number of samples? The Pa4x doesn't have speakers, so your comparison testing was done thru different speakers, might be hard to do apples to apples comparison. But truth be told, I haven't looked into this much, I want to be happy with what I've got!

I've never gotten the appeal of the Pa4x, at least at that price point. There's no onboard speakers (a must have for me, esp since the speakers on the Pa1000 are so excellent), it weighs 36 vs 25 pounds, a big deal for me, and is roughly twice as expensive as the Pa1000.

The biggest advantages that I can tell without having played one is that you can get a 76 note version (yes yes yes!), considerably greater FX capability, it has those sliders!, it has sub outs, a ribbon!, more top panel controls, the EC5 connector, and probably has a huge upgrade in the keybed from what I've read. For my sense of pricing I'd pay a premium of $1,000 over the Pa1000 for those features, not $2000, but only if it had built-in speakers.


Thanks again Biggles for writing this comparison post!!!
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha has certainly upped their game with the SX700/900 units. With that said, I still prefer the infinite editing and customizing options in the PA series.

We all know I have a PA700 so I won't go into my love of it Smile

Ironically enough, the main piano I use in my PA700 is a Yamaha C5 sample from Reuben's Yamaha C5 offerings. Yamaha would likely have an edge on ANY keyboard company with regard to pianos. They've done real ones for over 125 years...I do not think that anyone would say otherwise either. I am okay with that Smile

I figured that there would be a pretty big difference between Korg's offerings, especially between the 700/1000 and the 4X. maybe, one day, I will get the flagship for my studio...I imagine the same is also the same with Yamaha when comparing their lower cost lines (including the 700/900) with the Genos.

Thank you for the comprehensive report Smile

Grace,
Harry
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 4X that I played had the optional speaker system fitted and this may have had a bearing on the outcome.

I do not know of differences in sample size or quality what I did notice was the tone quality of the 4X was superior to the 1000 and 700.

I did not delve into the 4X settings to see what Eq and Limiter settings were applied.

Price wise here in the UK the 4X is not twice the price of a 1000.

For me a huge advantage of the 4X is the availability of 76 keys, the sliders and the increased number of physical controls.
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biggles wrote:
The 4X that I played had the optional speaker system fitted and this may have had a bearing on the outcome.

I do not know of differences in sample size or quality what I did notice was the tone quality of the 4X was superior to the 1000 and 700.

I did not delve into the 4X settings to see what Eq and Limiter settings were applied.

Price wise here in the UK the 4X is not twice the price of a 1000.

For me a huge advantage of the 4X is the availability of 76 keys, the sliders and the increased number of physical controls.

That's a big part of what sold me on the Pa700/1000, is that sound wise it was the same engine, and most of the same Styles and Sounds as the Pa4x. AFAIK, they sound the same.

You can always add Pa4X Styles to the Pa700/1000, but of course not all the keyboard sets would line up. In the US the price is $2,000 for the Pa1000, $3,900 for the Pa4X, and $4,100 for the 76 note version.

I've heard it said the PAS (speaker you can buy for the Pa4x) sounds louder and better than the speakers on the Pa1000, and they certainly have better directionality with it being pointed right at you, and with a "subwoofer", 2 mid range and 2 tweeters, and 80 watts total, it's bound to sound considerably better. At $389, it better sound better!

Yeah, there's a lot to love about the Pa4X. The way I look at it is Korg did an amazing job for those of us that don't have $4k to spend on a keyboard, they distilled most of the goodness in the Pa700/1000. Just like a lot of people see an upgrade from the Pa700 to the Pa1000 as not worth it, I feel the same way about going from the Pa1000 to the Pa4X.

I'm more satisfied than I was now that I've got my weighted 88 note Nord Stage midi'd to the Pa1000! It's also cool cause it gives me two manuals to play!

Randy
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Aripearlmusic
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually the prices ive seen here is $1550 for the pa1000, $2600 for the 4x61 and $2800 for the 4x76. The stock samples and sound engine are not the same on the 1000 as it is on the 4x which is partially why sounds and kits from the 4x cannot be loaded on the 1000 without converting them. The processor and sound quality are a big step up on the 4x. Even the output ports are better quality.
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aripearlmusic wrote:
Actually the prices ive seen here is $1550 for the pa1000, $2600 for the 4x61 and $2800 for the 4x76. The stock samples and sound engine are not the same on the 1000 as it is on the 4x which is partially why sounds and kits from the 4x cannot be loaded on the 1000 without converting them. The processor and sound quality are a big step up on the 4x. Even the output ports are better quality.


I would like to know the stores you are talking about then. Every online big box store and music shop I have visited states that the PA4X is still over $3500 and even closer to $4k...

Grace,
Harry
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aripearlmusic wrote:
Actually the prices ive seen here is $1550 for the pa1000, $2600 for the 4x61 and $2800 for the 4x76. The stock samples and sound engine are not the same on the 1000 as it is on the 4x which is partially why sounds and kits from the 4x cannot be loaded on the 1000 without converting them. The processor and sound quality are a big step up on the 4x. Even the output ports are better quality.

ProAudioStar has the Pa1000 available for $ 1,650 pretty consistently, and there's always looking around for refurbs, etc. Was super stoked to buy my Pa1000 for $1,100, lightly used. I wouldn't have been able to buy it otherwise.
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here in the UK in US Dollars a

Pa4X 76 is $3300

Pa4X61 is $3000

Pa1000 is $1950

Pa700 is $1300
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh.... list prices in the US
$1300 Pa700
$2000 Pa1000
$3900 Pa4X
$4100 Pa4X 76

Looking at ebay, $1450 from ProAudioStar is the lowest used price I've seen for the Pa1000 besides my purchase. I forget where I saw it, but saw $1650 as the lowest price for a new unit. Buying from Thomann.de or Musicstore.de, the price converted to dollars, plus shipping, new, is $1670. Don't know if the warranty is honored in the US.

From Thomann.de:
$2700 plus $33 shipping Pa4X International
$2900 plus $33 shipping Pa4X Musicant
The Thomann.de price includes VAT, don't know if customs or state tax in the US need to be paid as well.

At these prices, the Pa4X IS around a $1,000 premium over the Pa1000! But it's not an apples to apples comparison, being that I usually find a way to get 20% off the list price here in the states. Are 15-20% sales common in Europe? In the UK?

What is Musicant? Why the $200 premium for it?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was firmly resolved to stay out of this discussion but after having read all entries I feel like chipping in, all the more so because apart from some aspects mentioned alreayd the PA1000 version is highly underrated. It is being presented, in particular by Biggles ( no offence mate) as a spruced up PA700 that is hardly worth the extra cash and falls way short of the PA4X.

As to the pecunaries regardless in which country one can safely add the following equation in prices : PA4X+speakerbar = PA1000 + PA700 !!!!!

As to the merits of each model no doubt the PA4X is better than the other two as it should be considering it is 50% more expensive. As to the comparisons between the PA700 and the PA1000, they are quite substantial and more than so far hinted at overhere. (I briefly owned the PA700 and have owned the PA1000 for 18 months now). And before I enumerate let me say that the PA700 is great arranger keyboard in its own right and ideally combined with e.g. a Yamaha PSR makes for an incredible set up. However......

The amplification on the PA1000 is much better than on the PA700.
The keybed on the PA1000 is better as well.
The PA1000 sports aftertouch ( not sure about the PA700) more sounds, vocaliser, superb guitar+effects amplifier, and to the best of my knowledge some more basic rom samples . Based on the fact that my JS Resources for the PA1000 ( still on offer !) do not load entirely into the PA700 as a number of sounds ( + samples ?) are missing. And as already mentioned:
- more than twice the memory for user samples,
- top panel volume and fx control for voice/guitar (also controls line in volume),
- USB port on top panel,
- upper/lower scanner switch for reading chords above and below the split point,
- 2 speakers vs 1 speaker per side, 33 watts per side vs 25 watts,
- screen that tilts up (very useful),
- 2GB of sound vs 1GB, apparently most of this is for another large piano,
- dj style slider for dual sequencer/mp3 playback.

There is no doubt in my mind that the price difference of approx. 500/600
euros is quite justified and that despite the fact that as mentioned the PA700 is a very good offering the PA1000 is superior in every way imho.

regards,
John Smies
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,
Careful there now, using the phrase "superior in every way" is a loaded turn of phrase. I would suggest that it's sufficient to say that, for me, it was really worth the extra money, and here's why.

Before my Pa1000 I had the Casio MZ-X500 ($1,100). I can easily say, without exaggeration, that the Pa700 is a major upgrade (esp considering the Korg is only $100 more) and is superior in almost all ways that count, my satisfaction, and in particular the sound quality and useability / musicality of the Styles/Rhythms.

Whereas, in my opinion, the Pa1000 is more like the Plus version of an already outstanding board. But I do have to admit that I've been waiting for awhile now to point out the worthwhile upgrades over Pa700, essentially to say, "Yes, you have a great board, but it might be worth the extra money to you for these improvements- I certainly think so!"

But then again I was able to find a used Pa1000 for an incredible price and am sure I'd have been super stoked to have a Pa700 if my budget didn't allow for the 1000. Both boards are such creativity inspiring and beautiful sounding board. I truly had no idea that the whole arranger thing and the quality of sounds could be SO much better than my MZ-X500. Really blew me away.

Randy
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the_boss81
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to my tests - Pa1000 sounds better than Pa700 and at least as good as Pa4X. Sure, the Pa4X has hardware that definitely makes it a flagship - but the Pa1000 sounds just as good.
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ime95mos
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm currently looking at the PA700 and the PA1000.
Is it a better choice buying a slightly used PA1000 (as good as new with warranty) or a brand new PA700 ?

PA700 Around 1200 Euros
"used" PA1000 1500 Euros
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johnsmies
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ime95mos wrote:
I'm currently looking at the PA700 and the PA1000.
Is it a better choice buying a slightly used PA1000 (as good as new with warranty) or a brand new PA700 ?

PA700 Around 1200 Euros
"used" PA1000 1500 Euros



Given that you have warranty on the PA1000 I would definitely go for the PA1000 in this situation. Just read through this thread and see all the extras as compared to the PA700. For 300 euros that would be a no-brainer to me.
Good luck in whatever you choose.

regards
John
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