Korg Forums

[Basspig]

I recently converted a sample library, Michiel Post's POST ORGAN TOOLKIT from Kurzweil format to Kronos using A-wave Studio.

What I'm noticing is that some of the samples have "dead space" and a slight delay when playing, which makes tocatta style playing impossible. These same samples lack the delay when played on the Kurzweil K2600RS.

To make it have the same playing dynamics, I need to trim the beginning of the envelope, or slide the sample advanced in time just a few milliseconds. On the Kronos, I can add more delay with the envelopes, but I need to do the opposite. I need to trim some of the silence ahead of when the pipe speaks on the sample.

Apparently the Kurzweil version does this trim just nice, but something didn't translate properly to the Kronos with SOME but not all samples.

Any idea how to shift a sample to the left in time to eliminate the dead space ahead of the sound?

[apex]

[Basspig]

That's where I run into a wall. I hit the Audio In/Sampling tab, then select Osc/Pitch tab and I can see the sample/multisample I want to edit, but the dropdown menu isn't showing any function related to trimming or truncating. Just write, copy, swap, exc solo, remap. Can you walk me through the process? Maybe I'm on the wrong tab.

I would also like to normalize some samples, as one of the organs is about -8dB relative to the other two libraries (3 in all). Trying to do mixed registration is not working well because of the massive disparity in levels among samples.

These libraries were converted over from Kurzweil format (they don't have dead space when played on my K2600RS) and I assume that either the sample programs were tweaked in Kurzweil by the developer, or something went wrong in the conversion.

[enigmahack]

Also easy is going into the Sample Loop function and just changing the starting point. You don't need to enable the loop parameter, just basically move the starting point.

The only tricky thing is that you have to move both the loop start point and the sample start point; You can't have a loop that starts before the sample start, so you have to move the loop start FIRST, and then bump the sample start point up to match.
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[apex]

[Basspig]

Folks, I have no clue what menu or buttons to press to accomplish any of this.
Can someone walk me through? The Kronos is relatively new for me, purchased 2 months ago.

As for the sample library, it plays perfectly on the Kurzweil. It was sold for the Kurzweil. I bought it in 2005 from SoundEngine. They said they no longer support this product when I asked about a Kronos version.

So I bought A-Wave Studio so I could convert the library. Why? Because ALL of the pipe organ libraries available for Korg suck.

I've got most of it working, but for a few organ registrations, which have a delayed start when played on the Kronos. The same samples played on K2600RS play like they should. So something's missing in the conversion, perhaps the loop start points didn't carry over.

At any rate, how can I edit this, step by step? The manual only deals with samples you recorded yourself with the sampling input, not how to edit samples that are part of an imported library.

[KK]

I'll give you the rough ones, but it's nothing super easy. You first need to load the KSC file in Sampling mode. Note that certain libraries will refuse to be edited, depending on their original format.

From there, supposing you hear something in Sampling mode when you select samples, identify the ones with incorrect starting points and cut the silence portion at the beginning. Save them again into a new KSC and programs, etc.

In the case of samples which are "protected", you can always resample them directly with the Kronos and edit them at your taste.

Another option would be for you to reconvert the defective samples. One guess is that your problem happened during the conversion, the library is defective or instead used special techniques for certain sounds (pipe organ libraries are sometimes tricky).

[jones]

Do you want to truncate a sample?


https://youtu.be/sOaKE2K_CUQ
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[Basspig]

I've watched a number of videos like this one, and also ready the chapter on sampling, but none of them tell you how to edit a sample that's part of a library or KSC file. These tutorials are for using the internal sampling hardware in sampler mode.

And I can't figure out how to load a KSC in Sampler mode. It seems that only works in Disc mode.

Editing the loop in point on a sample from a purchased library was easy and I could do it in seconds on my K2600RS. But for some reason, library samples live in a separate universe, untouchable on the Kronos.

[burningbusch]

There are two types of user KSCs available on the Kronos. Typically, if you bring in samples/multi-samples they are in the KSC format that requires them to be loaded into RAM (and you can work on them in the onboard sample editor). If you then save the KSC, the system will create two, one KSC (RAM) and the other a UserBank.KSC (virtual). If the A-wave conversion is only creating a virtual streaming version, then you won't be able to edit it in the Kronos, you will have to do so with an external editor. Chicken Systems Translator creates both files (but they are named differently than Korg).

Regarding Michel Post, I do think he's been in the business for many years now. He might have sold it off to SampleTekk, not sure. Library creators do sometimes include quite a bit of time before the initial attack. Cinesamples Piano in Blue did that. I measured it and it was quite a lot. They said it was to allow for air (very subtle sounds immediately before the attack) but it created a noticeable latency which in a piano isn't a good thing. They later changed this as optional. I believe Kontakt allows the start time of the sample to be modulated via scripting. I have found this on other libraries as well and it's sometimes related to giving sonic space for attack elements.

Busch.

Busch.
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[Basspig]

Okay, I see a .KSC and .PCG file for each organ library I converted. There is also a _UserBank.KSC file.

I will try experimenting when I can unload a bunch of samples and make room to load the full samples. Maybe then I can bring them into the sample editing process to trim the samples.

It's been 15 years since I bought this library. It works great on the Kurzweil, but sounds different, delayed, like the sound of air building up, when played on the Kronos.

[kday]

[KK]

On the contrary, it's actually quite easy to create any multisamples you want on the Kronos.

I've created dozens of instruments on mine, some with multiple velocity layers, long loops, etc. The Kronos sampling mode is a lot easier to work with compared to certain samplers. I come from the old school so I know how it was to work on nightmarish machines like the Mirage and others. But like any serious sampling work you need effort and time to create good instruments, optimal long loops on complex sounds, etc.

What is more difficult is to modify EXs protected libraries, which use a dedicated exsins file for installation, because their sample files are hidden. And I understand perfectly why creators protect their hard work. But as I mentioned earlier, there are ways to work around this. You just need to learn how the Kronos works and spend some effort and time.

[kday]

Actually the Kronos is the most difficult of all samplers. On the Roland's and Akai MPCs and software samplers the sample editing is done on the first sample edit page and looping page is used for looping.

On this Kronos, the sample editing is shifted to another page other than the SAMPLE EDIT page?

Users are misled and have to re-read the manual to find out how to truncate the sample. Only to find out it's not actually on the SAMPLE EDIT page but on the other LOOP EDIT page. But even before you can edit the sample, you have to go through other steps like adjust the LOOP START and END points.

SAMPLE EDIT page was made useless and everything is shifted over to the LOOP EDIT page where everything is more tedious. It's not really difficult to do the editing once you learn it. But I get the feeling that Korg made it that way for a purpose.

On other Keyboards and samplers when you sample a sound you go to the SAMPLE EDIT page make changes and you're done. A one step process instead of Korg's three step process.

[Basspig]

Wow, didn't realize it was that difficult. A 60 second process to accomplish this on the Kurzweil K2600RS.

Messing with loop points on organ samples is risky. They are set perfectly by the author. Any slight change will result in weird motorboating sound effects instead of a smooth sustain.