Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Kronos - is that fake as Roland digital emulations or real?
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Latest News
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Narioso
Full Member


Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 148
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 4:45 pm    Post subject: Kronos - is that fake as Roland digital emulations or real? Reply with quote

I'm kind of disappointed over the route Roland has taken.

Was it JDXa that has a true analog engine in?
I looked closely at it but still something missing, I felt.
And combined with the digital engine not as versatile as I thought at first.
All the integra stuff there looked intriguing at first.
Then the cloud and you start to wonder where this is going?

Otherwise Roland is milking this Jupiter they did in the 80's or so.

Jupiter 80 all digital emulations of analog.
Jupiter X all digital emulations of analog.
Haven't looked in detail on Fantom yet.

Kronos isn't that the real chips of original engines of units inside, or?
Not recreating them again with emulations.

When did Roland do something that really showed their enthusiasm over synths and made something new, not riding the old merits?

And I have yet to see a Roland synth that made making own sounds and patches fun.

Korg do this over and over, is my view. I saw how proud they were over Odyssey when that was released and enthusiasm from developer over fixing oscillator stability and things like that. These are people I like to support, kind of, they bring enthusiasm to us all.

Same with ARP 2600 - it shows how much they love what they do.

Korg is moving forward all the time it seems to me. Yes, they bring retro but aiming to use the knowledge into new gear.
_________________
External gear: Wavestate, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05, Deepmind, Neutron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OpAmp
Platinum Member


Joined: 07 Jun 2013
Posts: 983
Location: Brussels, BE

PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

You are right, a lot of synths today are not analog at all. They are virtual analog, have samples on board (or is that rather a keyboard than a synth...) or do physical modelling or something else.... using digital emulations as you say. In fact it is embedded software on DSPs or even on general purpose CPUs as they tend to be "cheap" and fast as well these days. It allows a lot of implementation flexibility, firmware upgrades and so on.

I'm not going to argue about what type the Jupiter 80 or Jupiter X are. The Fantom is definitely embedded software. Integra also. As well as the Korg Kronos. Roughly speaking the only audio/analog chips in it are the AD/DA converters. Smile

Both flavors, digital and analog have their right of existence, their pros and cons, their musical genres, their adopters and haters.

Why Roland is choosing a certain strategy is not clear. It is a though market I think. Hence maybe economics play a role as well.

Bye.
_________________
microKORGXL, Kaossilator Pro, monotribe, SQ-1, volca fm, Kross 88 BK
Alesis SR18, Akai Miniak, Fender Strat, Line 6 Spider II 112, Zoom MS-50G
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Narioso
Full Member


Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 148
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.

So the next generation workstation from Korg is more like a digital emulation of Odyssey, Prologue and 2600 than anything analog inside. Maybe pricetag would not be what most can afford, don't know.

The Roland's I had fullsize synth was D50 and JV80 and a module SH-32 - and none were fun to explore so just a couple of month just about.

It feels like Korg and Behringer are way more innovative in what they do and constantly offering more to explore - and Roland is repeating itself more or less.

Roland:
- yes, now you can layer this old synth over this old synth
kind of.

And that what ceo or chief of R/D interview that were linked to here a while ago said their research showed market wanted.

Was it wishful thinking or does nobody want to discover anything new?

In defense they did Boutique series, I must give them that. D-05 I have is a powerbrick of old stuff also with arpeggiator not there on D-50 as I recall. Rather cool as a rompler and idea.

And Roland very highly regarded in the field of digital pianos, so more than synths around, I guess.

Korg develop Multiengine with VPN and user oscillators to combine with analog and Wavestate with loads of abilities. New soundscapes to create.

Roland did some cool attempt with JDXa, was really close to getting it. Layer a bit analog with integra stuff. I got Prologue and Wavestate for the same money allowing way more instead.
_________________
External gear: Wavestate, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05, Deepmind, Neutron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koekepan
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 438

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, if you want lots of analogue you can still get it (and quite high quality) from KORG.

The digital desirability then lies in the ability to sequence all your analogue madness from a repeatable platform. The studio master device at work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OpAmp
Platinum Member


Joined: 07 Jun 2013
Posts: 983
Location: Brussels, BE

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narioso wrote:

So the next generation workstation from Korg is more like a digital emulation of Odyssey, Prologue and 2600 than anything analog inside. Maybe pricetag would not be what most can afford, don't know.


Euhm, all workstations either from Korg, Roland or whatever will have digital emulations. Previous and next generations. Because it can/hast to do so much more than only virtual analog instruments. The way to go is digital then.

The Prologue is a mixture of digital and analog. The Wavestate is fully digital and on itself only an evolution of the Korg Wavestation (1990).

Roland also has a reissue of their "old" analog modules. System 500. Fully analog and modular. Which Korg does not have.

So, it depends a bit what you are looking for. Analog/digital. Workstation/keyboard/synth. Both brands have their own strategy and are innovative in some way (which is rather difficult these days).
_________________
microKORGXL, Kaossilator Pro, monotribe, SQ-1, volca fm, Kross 88 BK
Alesis SR18, Akai Miniak, Fender Strat, Line 6 Spider II 112, Zoom MS-50G
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Narioso
Full Member


Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 148
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys.
I'm just trying to see what's to anticipate around the corner - mostly Korg since I am more impressed about their thinking, always bringing something new.

Roland System 500 is mono stuff. Then Moog or DSI feel closer to home than looking at Roland, and would give wellknown true characteristic sounds.

For me even synths are song writing tools, so poly is more useful to color a bit more.

So if to expect something cool on workstations was my fantasy - but sound a bit boring to me. Computer is more useful for huge libraries and stuff.

Hardware is all about having hands on exploration for me. So guess workstation is useful for gigging musicians only.
_________________
External gear: Wavestate, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05, Deepmind, Neutron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koekepan
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 438

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narioso wrote:
Hardware is all about having hands on exploration for me. So guess workstation is useful for gigging musicians only.


Nope! At least, not here.

My workstations are first-class studio citizens, doing yeoman work in back end composition.

My main thing in our present circumstances is film scoring work, and workstations are great for that. I can use them as studio masters, driving a whole lot of other gear (digital as well as analogue) with their linear sequencers. The Krome in particular is great because the pianoroll makes it simple to nudge notes this way and that and draw in automation curves that might affect the Krome's internal engine, or might even go through a MIDI/CV interface to affect an analogue synth's sound. The integrated keyboard makes it quick to rough out ideas, and the ability to import MIDI files makes it easy to move sketches around until I assemble my full soundscape.

If KORG could create a real Krome II, with more controls, an updated touchscreen and more MIDI outs, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. The alternative would be to use something similar in spirit to Roland's AIRA system to have a decomposed workstation in the form of many plug-and-play units, supporting complex composition work.

Otherwise maybe the best workstation out there might be the MPC X, right now.

For live gigging, I'd rather have an arranger than a workstation anyway. I want that live performance sequencer for that kind of work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Narioso
Full Member


Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 148
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for enlightening me a bit. Smile

I always thought those small displays were not for hourly work - especially Krome.
But did not check if hdmi outs to run any size monitors.

I have dvd concert with Peter Gabriel "growing up tour" - and saw pretty large monitors. Don't remember if oasys or kronos or an arranger as you say.
_________________
External gear: Wavestate, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05, Deepmind, Neutron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bachus
Platinum Member


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 2696

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a reason workstations require to be 100 voices of polyphony or more.. they have 16 tracks (multitimbrallity) or more.. because they are meant not just to create the sounds you need but also your backings in a live situation.. they also function as a mini recording studio

If you want analogue.. you end up at max 16 voices polyphony and probably 2 parts multi timbral.. its a totally different instrument..

What the digital engines also offer is verstallity, rolands zen core mimmicks multi0le synth engines and synthesis forms.. kronos has 9 different sound engines..

If you kept an eye on the latest analogue synths, you will also see that the only part that has huge influence on the sound as analogue is the filter part, waldorf quantum, prophet.X, novation summit are synths with digital oscilators and dsp, while just the filter part is fully analogue... Roland Fantom also has an analogue filter build inside... this type of synth is called hybrid..


When building instruments there is allways a trade off... noboddy could build an analogue version of the kronos...
_________________
Korg Kronos 2/88 , Korg PA4x, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, Kurzweil PC3X
www.keyszone.boards.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Narioso
Full Member


Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 148
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for explaining.

I guess my fantasy to wait for another workstation is not the best choice for me. Overlapping computer in a big way.
_________________
External gear: Wavestate, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05, Deepmind, Neutron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skinmechanic
Junior Member


Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think thatís a massive contradiction. The Kronos is no more than the majority of what the Oasys was and thatís from 2005. People talk of Korg being forward thinking and then they release the 2600 from the early 70s?

I think ALL the three major manufacturers have recycled their Technologies since the mid 2000s now Roland have been more prolific at it because their lifecycle of a product is much shorter and they stop support and end up with half finished products.

I think the last great synthesiser from Roland which was a great design and concept was the V Synth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skinmechanic
Junior Member


Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think thatís a massive contradiction. The Kronos is no more than the majority of what the Oasys was and thatís from 2005. People talk of Korg being forward thinking and then they release the 2600 from the early 70s?

I think ALL the three major manufacturers have recycled their Technologies since the mid 2000s now Roland have been more prolific at it because their lifecycle of a product is much shorter and they stop support and end up with half finished products.

I think the last great synthesiser from Roland which was a great design and concept was the V Synth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8609
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skinmechanic wrote:
I think thatís a massive contradiction. The Kronos is no more than the majority of what the Oasys was and thatís from 2005. People talk of Korg being forward thinking and then they release the 2600 from the early 70s?

I think ALL the three major manufacturers have recycled their Technologies since the mid 2000s now Roland have been more prolific at it because their lifecycle of a product is much shorter and they stop support and end up with half finished products.

I think the last great synthesiser from Roland which was a great design and concept was the V Synth.


You are right about the recycling. The "factories " have appended other features and Fx to make new boards somewhat relevant or attractive.

My #1 gripe is that the premium keyboards of the Big 3 are over priced.
[90- 95% of owners disagree with me. Not surprising].

I know all about market economics , etc etc, but all 3 co's have healthy margins on the high pricers and folks have no problem spending $3000-$4000.

So coupled with many recycled sounds , we have over pricing. I know all about the 'rationale'. and the justifications of ' high prices'. Just the same
the factories are enjoying fat margins on their high priced electronic keyboards. And using recycled samples.

I analyzed Yamaha's financials to support my claim, that Montage, and other premium Yamaha electronic products are over priced. Its called margin analysis.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
skinmechanic
Junior Member


Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed iíve always bought the mid ranged stuff although iíve had the Kronos, Iíve had the Motif they went as the cost didnít justify the content for me when i already had the majority of them in other things. I did relent though and get the Fantom 8 because i wanted the keybed and Logic/Garageband integration with the sounds. Then Roland decided to give everyone the zen-core engine with the zenology plugin. However the zen-core when you look at what the Fantom has is just the majority of the Supernatural Synth engine and patches from the Jupiter 80, Integera, and FA synths without the aliasing. So more recycling but improved engine to generate those sounds.

To be fair iím not sure what other things manufacturers can do the constant update and recycling of whatís basically an Improved M1 which is where the workstation started caters for a certain musician who will always want something for live work and those that like to work outside of a DAW and will eventually upgrade to some point.

I like what Dave Smith did with the Prophet XL a real analogue synth mixed with quality samples to create an hybrid it would be good to get more of this but maybe add granular synthesis to those sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
xp50player
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 367
Location: Nashville

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overpriced compared to what? For an "overpriced" claim to be made, there must be something else that provides the same functionality and quality for less inflation-corrected dollars.

I think it is an unfair judgement and expectation for synthesizers to have all new sound generation technology and patches every new generation. What other instrument category is held to that standard? Electric guitars haven't fundamentally changed in 65 years. A horn is a horn.

Synth companies have constantly upgraded specs and added new features, for a lot less REAL dollars over the years, but they decided not to compete with 2Tb of sample libraries some of us are running on our computers.

Things like the V-Synth: history is littered with products that were cutting -edge, but did not appeal to the masses. If more people bought V-Synths, Roland would still be going in that direction. Roland is making what they think most people want at this time and in a niche left open by other companies' products. This is business. I don't know why people think companies owe them an experimental product that won't sell.
_________________
RD-800, Kronos61, Sub37, EX5
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Latest News All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group