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longeze
Joined: 11 Sep 2019
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:32 am Post subject: Has anyone opened their Kronos or other Korg KB's? |
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Has anyone opened their Korg KB's? When I opened my PA900 to replace the display, I was pretty shocked to find a plastic cased wall wart - bracket mounted to the case with a barrel connector plugged into a circuit board. After decades in business designing KB's, can't Korg afford to incorporate properly designed power supplies? On the "up" side, it does allow the option to modify it to remove that transformer and extend the lead out of the case to allow for battery powered operation and an external power supply to take some weight out of the axe.
I've serviced a fair amount of gear over the years, but this is about the cheesiest build quality I've ever seen, especially when combined with all the spring loaded and multiple screw terminated ground leads. To say it was amateurish is an understatement. If circuit boards were designed with proper ground planes, there would be no need for most of those leads & connectors. The flex cables were folded over multiple times leaving sharp pointed angles in their torturous paths as stress raisers waiting to fail. If anyone has opened up their higher dollar Korg KB's, is this the sort of build quality I could expect there as well? |
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KK
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 1422
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:53 am Post subject: |
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That's your opinion. Bought that Kurzweil PC2 around 2005, twice as expensive as the PA900, which came with an external power supply. I still much prefer to have the wall wart inside the synth even if it's just superglued or staying in place with spit and rubberband.
About your question, I owned a Wavestation A/D and it was top quality built inside, including the PCBs, transformer, capacitors, etc. Same with my new Kronos 2. |
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dfahrner
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 571
Location: Bend, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:07 am Post subject: |
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I've opened and worked on several Korg instruments (M3, Kronos1 61, 73, and 88, etc.) and have never seen anything like what longeze describes above...I'm with KK on this: everything inside is top quality...
df |
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voip
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 3776
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I would have thought a wall wart PSU ought to be properly designed? Provided it is properly secured inside, there should be no problem. As dfahrner noted, Korg instruments are generally well designed. I've seen multi $100k analytical equipments with wall warts inside.
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longeze
Joined: 11 Sep 2019
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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It is my opinion, based on 30yrs design/build experience as an engineer, working with all manner of electronic equipment targeted at various markets.
I have no issue with external wall warts. Having them mounted internally and connected with barrel connectors is an entirely different matter. That's just "cheap". I've never seen this practice from Korg's competitors.
At a $1700 price point for a portable self contained KB, I'd expect a proper shielded switch mode supply to save weight. From an economics point of view, what sense does it make to spend $ & design time to provide standoffs, 2) "U" brackets, screws & a female plug receptacle soldered onto a circuit board internally, when the same wall wart could've just been supplied externally?
If you've seen lab grade equipment costing $100's of thousands of $'s, I'm guessing it wasn't built by HP, BK, Fluke or any of the other reputable manufacturers. They don't cut corners like that.
What I don't understand, is why you'd choose to defend this build practice, rather than insist that Korg step up their build quality. There's probably not even $100 worth of components in that synth, so you're paying for "engineering".
I'm just saying that for the $, Korg could(should) do better. Given your acceptance of these practices, it's no wonder that they don't bother, since they can get away with it. I'm glad to know that they don't cheap out on their higher end synths like the Kronos to a similar extent.
I'm not here to "hate" on Korg products, I like the sounds and the innovative features, but the user interface beyond the touchscreen feature and build quality don't match the quality of their "sound" or innovative ideas. If this was a $500 synth, I probably wouldn't object, but at >3x the cost, that's beyond the pail - in my world. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I think we are debating theoretical
I go by successful longevity.
My K88, used every day, is 9 years old.
I expect it to work perfectly into the near future, lets say thru 2021.
Every Kronos owner can expect this longevity and expect problem free ownership.
I am not speaking as a ' fan '. Or whatever promoter term can apply.
a keyboard owner should take proper care of their keyboard. That is my assumption on the successful longevity above.
And many of us are ok communicating directly to Korg Inc.
If you want to direct specific issues, to Korg Inc, you are welcome to do so directly:
https://www.korg.com/jp/corporate/englishinfo/
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Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams 
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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KK
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 1422
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| longeze wrote: | It is my opinion, based on 30yrs design/build experience as an engineer, working with all manner of electronic equipment targeted at various markets.
What I don't understand, is why you'd choose to defend this build practice, rather than insist that Korg step up their build quality. There's probably not even $100 worth of components in that synth, so you're paying for "engineering". |
FWIW, I also studied/work in electronics, participated in books from great minds in that field like T. L. Floyd, repair/modify electronic gear of many types since decades, etc. But that's not the point at all.
I am not defending Korg more than any other brand. I just happen to be able to evaluate if an electronic product is of good quality or not. I bought my Wavestation A/D in 1990 and sold it in 2016 along with other machines to fund my new Kronos. That's 26 years lifetime and the new owner couldn't believe how impeccable it was when he bought it from me and I am sure he is enjoying it since then. IMHO this fact, not opinion, says a thing or two about that Korg product quality. And I am sure the Kronos will last many more years as well.
Also, to compare the price sum of components inside a digital musical instrument vs what you pay for it is irrelevant. This applies to all digital machines from Korg, Kurzweil, Roland, etc. It takes big amounts of time/effort from many people to develop and then build complex digital machines, so of course the consumer will pay for it. This is only normal in this capitalist world, regardless of manufacturer. |
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longeze
Joined: 11 Sep 2019
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| KK wrote: | ...I just happen to be able to evaluate if an electronic product is of good quality or not.
I bought my Wavestation A/D in 1990 and sold it in 2016... That's 26 years lifetime ... IMHO this fact, not opinion, says a thing or two about that Korg product quality...
Also, to compare the price sum of components inside a digital musical instrument vs what you pay for it is irrelevant... |
KK, your comment about the irrelevancy of the component price sum is a fair point - to an extent. I think it IS reasonable to expect components of higher quality and tighter tolerances to be used in the build as the price of the product increases however. I'm saying that for the ~$1700 people spent to buy the PA900, that they had a right to expect better than a wall wart bracketed to the case with a rats nest of ground wires and springy clips tieing grounds together, presumably in an effort to prevent ground loops or help shield rfi/emi & such It's poor design practice, plain & simple. If you advocate these design/build practices, and consider them to be of "good quality", then I seriouisly question your 1st statement above.
To your point about your wavestation, I'd say it's a 30yr old instrument, and that it's likely that at least for instruments at a lower price point, that build quality has declined since. My PA900 lasted two weeks until it slid off a bass drum case onto a CARPETED/padded floor, causing the display to fail. That's not what I consider a roadworthy or well built instrument. At least the case didn't shatter as it did on my Yamaha psr s-970 that went down with it. That aside, I'd also argue that I shouldn't have to remove & replace > 40 fasteners & a dozen cables to access the display to service it, but that's a different issue.
To the suggestion that I contact Korg directly, I made repeated efforts to contact Korg for parts & service information, as well as with questions about functional issues. I got zero response to my parts & service inquiries. I DID get an answer to my operational questions - nearly a month after I sent two emails.
The response I received was along the lines of "we noticed you sent a question.... did you get a satisfactory answer? To their credit I suppose, they responded within a few days to answer my questions at that point. It's a good thing I wasn't in a hurry for the information. I never did get a phone # to call for technical assistance.
Again, I'm not here to bash Korg. I'm just sharing my experience and observations, not trying to tell anyone how to spend their money. I do think it's really unfortunate, that I'm priced out of the market for the Korg (& Yamaha) products that use a keybed with a decent feel. At least it's not as shallow as my Roland synth  I do love the Korg sounds. It's too bad they don't make these in a module. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| longeze wrote: | [quot
The response I received was along the lines of "we noticed you sent a question.... did you get a satisfactory answer? To their credit I suppose, they responded within a few days to answer my questions at that point. It's a good thing I wasn't in a hurry for the information. I never did get a phone # to call for technical assistance.
ule. |
I think we are over dependent on email. Thus, we have to go back to traditional
communication to the responsible parities
Writing letters and making phone calls. To the correct parties.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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KK
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 1422
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| longeze wrote: | | If you advocate these design/build practices, and consider them to be of "good quality", then I seriouisly question your 1st statement above. |
This is my last reply in this topic, since you seem to enjoy being disrespectful, implying that I am not competent because I disagree with your opinion. I will be pleased to report you to the mods if you use other ad hominem arguments.
| longeze wrote: | | My PA900 lasted two weeks until it slid off a bass drum case onto a CARPETED/padded floor, causing the display to fail. That's not what I consider a roadworthy or well built instrument. |
A digital musical instrument is not a Toughbook laptop, nor it is specified in its specs that it is fool proof or should survive a two feet drop on any type of surface. To blame the manufacturer for one's own mistake is also irrelevant. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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not trying to be argumentative, but here goes..
I don't understand comparing very different products,,, to the effect of:
" Product A works great, and I dropped it down 10 flights of stairs "
" Product B only last 7 years. WTF. My product A, blah blah blah "
I am opposed to these ' analogies ' to try to make a point.
Analogies are almost inherently flawed.
Why my dog is the same as a cow is a mystery to me
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Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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longeze
Joined: 11 Sep 2019
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | ...I don't understand comparing very different products,,, to the effect of:
" Product A works great, and I dropped it down 10 flights of stairs "
" Product B only last 7 years. WTF. My product A, blah blah blah "
I am opposed to these ' analogies ' to try to make a point.
Analogies are almost inherently flawed.
Why my dog is the same as a cow is a mystery to me |
"Dog not a cow" ROFL ) You have to start somewhere. I have a Roland, Polaris, Ensonique, a couple arp's, and a couple Yamaha's synths that have all been beat around and abused on the road for years & years without problems. I acknowledge that this is anecdotal and probably not a representative sample of the synth population but that's my 1st hand experience with synth longevity other than occasionally being brought one for service.
I've opened most of them to take a peek or swap a battery one time or another, and have never found anything particularly objectionable with their build quality. From my point of view, the question is whether the Korg community is better off with people reporting the "warts"/flaws as they see them, or should everyone bury their heads in the sand and just wave the Korg flag.
KK - You started by dismissing my comments as "my opinion". You then went on to to recite your resume as if to show your opinion as being superior to mine. My remarks weren't meant to be personal or offensive, but if you're thin skinned or insecure to the extent that you take them as such, then do as you must and report away.
I'm not interested in getting into a Dik slamming contest with you. Suffice it to say that industry has paid me well for my judgement, and that I'm positive that you've used or consumed products manufactured using my hardware & software designs. I'm giving this community the benefit of my decades of design experience for free as a public service. Dismiss it, say thanks, or be offended, - either way I've done my part to put it out there to help further the "art". Do with it what you will. It's worth at least what you paid for it. Peace... |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| longeze wrote: | | GregC wrote: | ...I don't understand comparing very different products,,, to the effect of:
" Product A works great, and I dropped it down 10 flights of stairs "
" Product B only last 7 years. WTF. My product A, blah blah blah "
I am opposed to these ' analogies ' to try to make a point.
Analogies are almost inherently flawed.
Why my dog is the same as a cow is a mystery to me |
"Dog not a cow" ROFL )
1) You have to start somewhere. I have a Roland, Polaris, Ensonique, a couple arp's, and a couple Yamaha's synths that have all been beat around and abused on the road for years & years without problems.
1 a) I acknowledge that this is anecdotal and probably not a representative sample of the synth population but that's my 1st hand experience with synth longevity other than occasionally being brought one for service.
2]. From my point of view, the question is whether the Korg community is better off with people reporting the "warts"/flaws as they see them, or should everyone bury their heads in the sand and just wave the Korg flag.
e... |
1) I understand, thanks for considering my statement. Those synths you mention had much different material than what we have today.
Its not surprising- owners that gig demanded ' less weight '. The 3 Big Dogs said, ok, ok, ok, we will use plastic..
Simply, owners cannot have it both ways 100% of the time.
And don't construe I am giving Korg a free pass. More on that later.
1 a ] Kronos has been available for 9 years. we have bunches of anecdotal on ' durability ' ,,, '' reliability''. But its scattered and unstructured all over the forum.
Nevertheless , we can draw conclusions on Kronos without reaching back 20+. years
2) Don't be so quick with an assumption about Kronos owners '' burying their heads in the sand "
see My Poll... see my topics about debating enhancements...etcetc
Did you not see that ?
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Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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longeze
Joined: 11 Sep 2019
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:18 am Post subject: |
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I have not seen your Kronos poll(s). My comments about build quality were strictly confined to the PA900 that I referenced, as I have no knowledge or experience with the build quality of the Kronos or other Korg products at all, so I can't speak to that. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
I originally posted in the Kronos thread, because I wanted some technical information about how the flex cables were secured & I thought possibly the Kronos shared some basic components or someone here would have some knowledge about this. Since I got no answer on the PA900 thread, I hoped that with it's much higher traffic count, that possibly this thread would get me a response. I'll check out your poll - thanks for bringing it to my attention
On a different topic, if anyone has a phone # for Korg tech support, it would be great if you could post it! After reassembly, my display & touchscreen now work perfectly, but the value dial, menu & exit buttons quit working. I'm not looking forward to removing all those fasteners - again. |
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DeltaJockey
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2015
Posts: 303
Location: East Gippsland, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm interested to know if the wall wart you describe is one which plugs directly into the wall, as that is my definition of a wall wart. Or is it an inline black plastic brick switch mode as typically used for PC laptops. If the latter, I would have thought that an acceptable solution, encompasses a ready made EMI shield and it makes for a very swift replacement if the power supply fails, which being under the most electrical stress is often the first thing to fail. A true wall wart plugged into an internal mains receptacle inside the keyboard not so cool 
I find the internals of the Kronos to be as good a standard as any keyboard I've owned. In fact it has certain elements of prototyping, often associated with over engineering, though of course there is always isolated areas of design which could always leave room for improvement!
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The companions I can't live without: Kawai Acoustic Grand, Kawai MP11SE, Yamaha Montage8, Korg D1
Other important stuff: Kronos2-73, Studiologic NC2X, NI Komplete Ultimate 11, Sonuscore Elysion and Orchestra, Pianoteq, Experimenta Due. |
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