Korg Forums

[Korghelper]

I simply think it’s wildly optimistic especially in these troubled times that any arranger maker is going to bring out anything revolutionary. All we ever get from new models from the same manufacturer is creeping improvement pace. Admittedly, the Genos made possibly the largest jump in recent memory, doubling polyphony to 256 and massively improving insert effects to 28 freely assignable (so, stackable if you want), Revo drums, plus updating to include the eight part chord sequencer. I’m not sure I see that in Korg’s future, especially now...

All we tend to see is no better than a 10% increase in NEW samples, the majority of the ROM remains the same, in the end. And 90% of the OS remains untouched. For which we are expected to pony up at least a grand or more if trading up, far more if our arrangers are gigged and a bit worn...

But ADD another, cheaper arranger from another brand and use it primarily as a sound source for your Korg, and sometimes the style engine for Korg sounds, or audio or loop capabilities the Korg makes difficult, and you gain FAR much more than you get in one model increase from the same manufacturer...

Yes, it’s a PITA, yes it would be best if all that improvement in sound came without the hassle of dealing with two keyboards, but that’s simply not going to happen. So, do you double your new sounds by adding a different arranger, or do you get a maybe 10% gain at best by waiting God knows how long for the next Korg? It’s going to cost you about the same...

[DonM]

[karmathanever]

Thanks Don - you've got me thinking again!!!! BUT....

...sadly, our Ketron support and service here does not exist let alone the exorbitant pricing which would threaten my marriage

Take care

Pete
_________________
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
------------------------------------------------------------------
## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
------------------------------------------------------------------

[fResH_]

Ketron SD outshines pa4x in some aspects. Listened to the comparission video. fuller and richer output sounding quality. And nice touch of samples.

SD7 has no sampler, but SD9 has. Whats up with the wheels on the panel? What are they thinking?

And I agree with what karmathanever says, the support is lacking and has not forum community like KORG and the pricetag :/

And end note is that Korg has a very strong OS compared to Ketron/Yamaha. Easy to make custom stuff and sound good, which is the power of Korg.

[Korghelper]

If you are the kind of player that doesn't go outside the ROM styles much, Ketron's are pretty amazing. But the audio loop stuff means that imported MIDI styles rarely sound anywhere close to as good as the ROM styles, and also means editing styles to use different kits or sounds is often also close to impossible to make sound as good as the loop styles.

I don't like the idea of some of my show sounding amazingly realistic, and then some sounding pretty average. I want consistency...

[karmathanever]

[Korghelper]

Yeah, Yamaha's loop foray never felt well thought out, and seems to have gone away now they are concentrating on Revo drums with a lot more articulations and round robins. I thought most of their audio drum loops were FAR too ambient, and completely impossible to blend in with the MIDI styles.

But Ketron's, probably because they have been doing it so much longer, are pretty much on the money, long enough loops to not be any more repetitive than say a MIDI style loop, and the recordings are quite consistent as to ambience. But, of course, you can't edit them...

I still think it's a blind alley as long as arranger manufacturers start to leverage the types of articulations and sample depth of the better VSTi's, but that seems to be a long time coming, especially when ultra realistic drum kit VSTi's and bass libraries have been out for decades on computers.

From what I have heard of some of the Revo kits, when programmed well, they are a huge step upwards. But even they suffer from most of the legacy styles not using them, and needing a TON of editing to fully leverage all those extra new notes for things like hihat articulations etc..

But at least the Genos is the first Yamaha I have heard in decades where, as long as it's playing a Revo style, I don't cringe at the drum sound! TBH, if someone put one in my Christmas stocking, I don't think I'd send it back!

[the_boss81]

I switched from Pa4 to SD9. Fortunately, I was able to return the ketron after a few days in the shop...
In my opinion Ketron sounds very good but at the same time boring and the styles are predictable...
Operation is OK in the new models of Ketron, but for me not as intuitive as with Korg. I had XD9, MidJ Plus, Audya was bad, then I had Midjpro with new OS, it was OK.
Acoustic drums, some acoustic sounds I find better with Ketron than with Korg, but with new music styles Ketron sounds very old... and the audio drums don't help much.
Sorry, but whoever wants to test things like "Ketron SD outshines pa4x." should do it himself and not spread mitology. I had both of them on one stand for days and I was disappointed with Ketron - I expected a bit more evolution from the previous models I had in earlier years. Korg is much more inspiring, musical... and when we talk about Midi Files, Korg is even more at an advantage. But of course everyone can decide that for himself.
_________________
Sorry 4 my English - I only speak Polish & German & really like my Pa5X

[pawlikp100]

[the_boss81]

You got that right. But we should always test alone live and then decide for ourselves ... I was back at Korg's after a few days and it will remain so to my taste.But of course I have no problem if someone changes to another brand. BR
_________________
Sorry 4 my English - I only speak Polish & German & really like my Pa5X

[Bachus]

[Bachus]

[Musicwithharry]

It seems like the bigger companies could take lessons from some of the smaller companies and integrate certain features from them into their own arrangers...

I like the idea that Bachus talked about with having arranger 'modules' or desktop units that we could attach to another keyboard - I think that would make things more flexible for so many people.

I also LOVE the idea of the real drums and guitars that Ketron has. I never got into the Yamaha way of doing things in that regard, but I still have a lot of interest in Ketron because of how they sound, at least in the videos. When the Audya was first promoted, I was pretty blown away. It was neat to hear real guitar sounds and drum sounds done in such a fashion.

In my experience with synths and arrangers (see my gear list in my signature), the WEAKEST point for me in these synths and arrangers are the rhythm guitars. Fortunately, I am able to get a GREAT lead guitar sound with my Korg PA700 (using EFX and the DNC controls). But the rhythm guitars sound so sterile and, well, canned. Even in a MIDI sequence when I can use two insert EFX slots for them, they are not super believable. That is where the Ketron real guitar stuff seems to do better. I understand about repetitiveness in the patterns, but with memory being what it is now, we should be able to overcome that.

Maybe Korg could design real guitar and real drum patterns like Ketron does, but instead of adding effects in while they record them, they could take an EFX section like in the Yamaha Genos and PSR-X series and allow for lots of effects routings. Then, we could take the guitar patterns and add our own EFX to them according to the style of music we are playing. Imagine being able to take a dry Power Chord pattern and adding the Mic Modeler, Tube Amp, and Distortion of OUR choice to further define it as our own... that Power Chord pattern could work for many different genres of music based on how we set up the EFX.

The biggest problem with electronic drums is that there is a threshold where they cannot get any louder. This means that they can (and usually will) get lost in a full mix of music. The top threshold for velocity is 127. Jacking them up in a mix does not always help this because then ALL of the drums can get too loud.

I LOVE arrangers and I LOVE synths. They all have their place and I get a lot of use out of them ALL. I remember, back in the 90's, I had a Technics Digital Ensemble. I bought it for $5k and it had a feature that would change the density of the backing tracks based on how much you played over the top with the lead voice. That allowed me to have a lot more variation when playing it live. I am not knocking Korg at all because you can have up to 6 CVs programmed for each style and each variation within that style. You are still limited to the CV though in each style variation (even if you can specify the number of measures a CV can be). There is still a potential for 'boring' parts because the spontaneous (or 'live') feel is not there.

With that last sentence being said, maybe that is where KARMA would come into play. It would add that 'live' feel to an arranger. I know the argument of the additional control surface for manipulating KARMA, but maybe it could be done with an external controller surface hooked into the USB connection on the PA series.

Maybe KARMA is the answer to making arrangers sound more real. I would LOVE to see an implementation of it in one of Korg's arrangers. I really think that may be an answer. Maybe Mr. Kay could develop a software version of it like he did for the M50 and Yamaha Motif and see how it works. If it worked, maybe the next step could be to actually integrate it into an arranger. Based on what I know about KARMA and how it works, maybe he is sitting on another gold-mine for its implementation in an arranger...

If KARMA is too much to add, maybe Korg could add the dual ARP that the Krome, Kross, M50, Triton had. Having that over the top of an arranger style might add more variation. I know we can achieve some of this with the use of the Pads on the PA series, but dedicated ARPs over a style could be an extension of that...

There are a lot of possibilities, for sure. Maybe it is time for one of these big three companies to start looking at a machine that truly could do it all...

I know we have beaten the dead horse of pricing for such in instrument, so I will no go there

Grace,
Harry
_________________
Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC