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Seems analogue hype is over
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:16 pm    Post subject: Seems analogue hype is over Reply with quote

When i look at the latest best selling keyboards, Wavestate, Hydrasynth, jupiter X, waldorf Iridium and Kyra. I think its save to conclude that The analogue hype is over..

Seems like everyone is having much more fun with their wavestate thne any analogue released in the last decade?
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Seems analogue hype is over Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
When i look at the latest best selling keyboards, Wavestate, Hydrasynth, jupiter X, waldorf Iridium and Kyra. I think its save to conclude that The analogue hype is over..

Seems like everyone is having much more fun with their wavestate thne any analogue released in the last decade?


Not completely. You forget EURORACK!!!!!! Cool
That said, I have only actually one analogue oscillator module and am busy making hybrid synths in my enclosures. Analogue filters out the wahzoo!

Also, Roland and Yamaha never did join in with the rest with making analogues again, you can't really count the all digital Jupiter X as a move by Roland back to digital.

Analogue isn't "over" as such, more it is the second dawn of the hybrid. The Hydrasynth is one, as is the Pro3. Novation are going hard on their line of hybrids which started with the Peak and even the Iridium is a descendant of Waldorf's super hybrid, the Quantum. Digital everything does make things very cheap, but there will always be a call for analogues in there. A combination of them definitely creates sounds that please so I couldn't imagine the synth world is going back the 90's any time soon.

The year is half done really, Dave Smith has promised something new 3rd quarter and I have to wonder what someone like Tatsuya Takahashi is going to do with Max Rest. I can't imagine a team like that just running a distributions company.....
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Narioso
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's digital hype now, and only Wavestate and Argon8 can be considered really affordable for anybody.

About Wavestate I don't think it sounds that good, you have to be careful with not transposing anything. Those algorithms are not the best.

Also very unclear what of source waveforms actually have a proper map if to even use, and avoid transpose of pitch. I would like to see that marked up clearly so you know what you are in for.

I wrote in Wavestate forum about mistake I did looking through all multisamples that were playable sounds - and just by having +1 on transpose made those sound horrible in the range keyboard is. I just happended to have a program loaded that had +1 on, and did not think about it.

So not even sure I will use it, but might sell it off. My ears are very sensitive to strain and quickly fatigue when I hear that not so lush sound. I might dive into DeepMind again to do those evolving pads I was looking for.

I did not hear anything about Iridium that made me want it, sounded digital. And a guy and KVR had one for 3 weeks and just confirmed demos I saw/heard. And puke over menu diving.

Kyra I heard really nice demos and stuff(the one made at thomann) - but not preview of overwrite position so nothing I will make sounds with. So bringing nothing to the table. And sound were really demoed with huge reverb and cover much or core sound, IMO. So still have to hear core sound.

I cannot say Jupiter X sound bad, but think Roland are just repeating themselves. Did they even do anything worth having the last 40 years - they still live on old merits, kind of. If they, or Behringer really come through and do a remake of Jupiter 8, not these digital emulations, I would really look into that.

But these above, $2500 range or so, I don't consider affordable for anybody. If really bringing what you want, you get it, but not just as addon.

Looked at Argon8 and was very into getting one, but over and over demos showed effects and stuff, not the core sound would be worth having. And at NAMM he mostly talked about effects. But it could all be not so skilled people playing it and demoing it. But got Wavestate right then, so kind of fell down the list.

I worship Prologue for the sound. So really curious what Dave Smith have in mind at end of year. If anything polyphonic I might go for it(4 voices is enough to color a bit). Monosynths he did too many. What is the significance of Pro3, as an example. Sounding lovely and all, but compared to product line, what does it bring? Just adding more mono synths to the product line.

So yes, the analogue hype continues for me....digital has to be drowned in reverb to even listen to, for too much of those mentioned. Nordlead is exception to this. No effects onboard on NL2X, so they focus on the sound - not how to cover the sound. And working at 96k internally not audible aliasing.

But exploration of Wavestate continues a bit more, to see which multisamples really are carefully mapped, to give the nicest possible sound on every pitch. You simply cannot transpose as complex waveform as strings and make it sound right in realtime. All harmonics must be handled like in pitch correcting plugs like Waves Tune or Celemony Melodyne or it put strain on ears. You cannot do that realtime, that must be done on each pitch and then mapped for every pitch. But it's not marked to easily find which ones are mapped. Best is if recorded at every pitch, but don't really think realistic in this price range.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narioso wrote:
So it's digital hype now, and only Wavestate and Argon8 can be considered really affordable for anybody.

About Wavestate I don't think it sounds that good, you have to be careful with not transposing anything. Those algorithms are not the best.

Also very unclear what of source waveforms actually have a proper map if to even use, and avoid transpose of pitch. I would like to see that marked up clearly so you know what you are in for.

I wrote in Wavestate forum about mistake I did looking through all multisamples that were playable sounds - and just by having +1 on transpose made those sound horrible in the range keyboard is. I just happended to have a program loaded that had +1 on, and did not think about it.

So not even sure I will use it, but might sell it off. My ears are very sensitive to strain and quickly fatigue when I hear that not so lush sound. I might dive into DeepMind again to do those evolving pads I was looking for.

I did not hear anything about Iridium that made me want it, sounded digital. And a guy and KVR had one for 3 weeks and just confirmed demos I saw/heard. And puke over menu diving.

Kyra I heard really nice demos and stuff(the one made at thomann) - but not preview of overwrite position so nothing I will make sounds with. So bringing nothing to the table. And sound were really demoed with huge reverb and cover much or core sound, IMO. So still have to hear core sound.

I cannot say Jupiter X sound bad, but think Roland are just repeating themselves. Did they even do anything worth having the last 40 years - they still live on old merits, kind of. If they, or Behringer really come through and do a remake of Jupiter 8, not these digital emulations, I would really look into that.

But these above, $2500 range or so, I don't consider affordable for anybody. If really bringing what you want, you get it, but not just as addon.

Looked at Argon8 and was very into getting one, but over and over demos showed effects and stuff, not the core sound would be worth having. And at NAMM he mostly talked about effects. But it could all be not so skilled people playing it and demoing it. But got Wavestate right then, so kind of fell down the list.

I worship Prologue for the sound. So really curious what Dave Smith have in mind at end of year. If anything polyphonic I might go for it(4 voices is enough to color a bit). Monosynths he did too many. What is the significance of Pro3, as an example. Sounding lovely and all, but compared to product line, what does it bring? Just adding more mono synths to the product line.

So yes, the analogue hype continues for me....digital has to be drowned in reverb to even listen to, for too much of those mentioned. Nordlead is exception to this. No effects onboard on NL2X, so they focus on the sound - not how to cover the sound. And working at 96k internally not audible aliasing.

But exploration of Wavestate continues a bit more, to see which multisamples really are carefully mapped, to give the nicest possible sound on every pitch. You simply cannot transpose as complex waveform as strings and make it sound right in realtime. All harmonics must be handled like in pitch correcting plugs like Waves Tune or Celemony Melodyne or it put strain on ears. You cannot do that realtime, that must be done on each pitch and then mapped for every pitch. But it's not marked to easily find which ones are mapped. Best is if recorded at every pitch, but don't really think realistic in this price range.



Dave smith is clearly moving more and more in the direction of hybrid with its main prophet 12 and prophet X...

I guess even Dave smith will follow the pack, or lead the pack..

Digital oscialtors (VA, wavetable, sample, FM, and what more) and shaper section... then being able to go troough an analogue Filter section, but also having a digital filter option if you want more polyphony, probably even on aan oscilator by oscilator choice.. an then back into a digital effects chian...

I wouldn’t even be surpirised if he would join ASM in their efforts to finally bring back the poly aftertouch and ribbons ...

No matter what he does, it will have impact on the buiseness... i think Dave has been an advocate of hybrid synths for quite some time now.. digital oscilators if done right have the same quallity as Analogue, but offer a huge flexibility..
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Narioso
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
digital oscilators if done right have the same quallity as Analogue, but offer a huge flexibility..


Agree fully, multi engine in prologue is good example of that. Really good move how Korg open up flexibility to us.

There was something like this in Roland JD-Xa as well, an analog engine that could be combined with digital stuff, with a lot from Integra in compatibility. Still a little keen to explore that. I saw an ad on second hand one, and a bit curious, but it had issues with lights on knobs that went dead and such. Among Roland stuff JD-Xa is the one I would look into further, possibly System-8 which would be swell if getting more ability to store more than 64 patches and recall with the backup feature to usb.

KingKorg was ambituous, but not quite there - not in sound and not in workflow.

But overall I like what Korg offer us.

And if finding at least 20-30 patches, as done to liking, I will be all good with Wavestate too. Not every sound need to produce the best you heard. It is a unique unit in so many ways.

I think it was CopInd Kinetic Orhestra wavesequences I started looking at, that really sounded horrible and harsch - and pitch lane had entries doing +24, +19 and +12 and such and coins start to drop what makes things worse. This is pitching up 2 octaves, you cannot expect anything from that original sample being good.

And then evaluating the whole lot of multisamples finding I had +1 octave on all - the rest of the coins drop. One has to keep pad type of playable sound close to original. Short percussive is different, hihats and many such short samples have a lot of harsch components in them.

So having settings off I did Wavestate injustice, kind of.
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
i think Dave has been an advocate of hybrid synths for quite some time now.. digital oscilators if done right have the same quallity as Analogue, but offer a huge flexibility..


Since about 1986. Remember too, the Evolver was his hybrid explosion back into hardware in 2002 (at $500usd it was an absolute steal!) And even thought it's a bit thin to use as a bass synth, I'm not selling mine, in fact anyone want to sell me theirs? Laughing

Digital oscillators are definitely fantastic sounding and offer a far more in the waveforms for sculpting (or building upon) than analogue, for sure. Digital filters too have the strengths. But I have to agree that unless it is something really exemplary, all digital becomes fatiguing. I remember realising that as amazing as the Microwave XT sounds, I needed to add analogue to the sound to remove that underlying brittleness.

The Argon8 sounds very good for a VA but I still can't warm to the sound, in the end. I'd quicker put my money into Paula's very first synth effort, a wavetable mono synth with an analogue signal path which is still being produced (up the road from me in fact) 20yrs later. Paula is truly an amazing mind in the synthesiser world and I really should grab one of her WTF Oscillator modules (if they weren't sold out all the time!)

The Kyra is another super sounding VA and with a voice count through the roof (and a quick search in the manual brings up that you can overwrite any preset sound it has, like all Waldorf synths). I'm an incurable Waldorf zealot, but I do feel they need to do a more affordable hybrid. Pretty sure the Quantum is the spiritual successor to the Wave and the Kyra is the Q mk2, so it would be nice if they could do a Microwave 3 (Blofeld 2?) that went back to the roots of the hybrid nature of the original.

Blah blah blah, I was only going to stop in for a sec while I ate dinner, I have a new enclosure to populate!!!!!
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Narioso
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

megamarkd wrote:

Digital oscillators are definitely fantastic sounding and offer a far more in the waveforms for sculpting (or building upon) than analogue, for sure. Digital filters too have the strengths. But I have to agree that unless it is something really exemplary, all digital becomes fatiguing. I remember realising that as amazing as the Microwave XT sounds, I needed to add analogue to the sound to remove that underlying brittleness.



And yet many add functionality to digitally controlled oscillators to simulate the instability and wobbling, and free running causing phasing between voices sounding etc.

First synth I had with these settings were Roland SH-32. But still on rather extreme settings did not bring that VCO thing.

Roland Jupiter X/Xm spent quite a lot of effort to simulate oscillator drift and have settings to set a virtual temperature in doing this.

DeepMind also have these settings for oscillator drift and even parameter drift to emulate the non-perfect workings of analog synths.

OSC-DRIFT is applied to both OSC 1 and OSC 2.
The parameters which DRIFT is applied to are:
• OSC1 PITCH MOD, OSC1 PWM, OSC2 PITCH MOD, OSC2 TONE MOD,
• VCF FREQ, VCF RES, VCF ENV DEPTH, VCF LFO DEPTH, VCA ENV DEPTH,
• MOD ENV DEPTH

DRIFT-RATE - This controls the RATE at which the OSC-DRIFT and
PARAM-DRIFT operate.

I looked at latest version of comparison chart from DSI/Sequential.
It have digital oscillators on some, some with waveshaping.
https://yo41t1y5gos9jw8f3lptw0xo-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Sequential-Synth-Comparison-Chart-4.8.pdf

But the common factor seems to be analog filter path.

This is what DeepMind go for too - you can choose to have send-effects and analog path remains, and does not go through digital effect section as insert effects do. But DeepMind offer the choice and quite clever variations of routings between effects that you use.

So to summarise I would say there is something stiff and too perfect about fully digital oscillators, even if just digitally controlled.

Sought after effects are imperfections of analog, in all hardware as rack effects and consoles as well.

I found the SH-32 really boring, and even over 100 waveforms with the variations did not bring what I hoped for. This was about 20 years ago, so synth market has exploded since then. Probably never been such a wide market for synths as of today.

I just read that Prophet 12 were a bit boring too, and why they created the true VCO versions Prophet 6 and OB-6.

What seem to lack on VCO based synths are cross modulations, at least of polyphonic. Nobody went further than MatrixBrute though, true 16x16 with individual amount - but mono then.

So the slight phasing effects of voices I think is the core of nice sounding oscillators, but analog signal filter path even more important as a base.

So again Prologue's multiengine in combination with two vco's is as good as it gets. You clearly notice difference, after power up the first 20 minutes you have to frequently retune since analog is not all stable yet, so patches with multiengine, which is stable from start, and cross mod(FM) sound horrible until up to temperature.

But shows again how digital works - same, same and not different - all the time.

Even doing recording of acoustic guitar, I use two mikes, usually the internal system of some sort, and an external mike - and panning these hard left right create a tiny phasing effect that makes it sound even nicer. Time difference between mikes make this happend.
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure that we can say that the analog hype is over now.

There are A LOT of users who love that analog sound, even if they are finding it for the first time.

Among all of my digital synths, I also have a Minilogue XD and the XD module and love the sounds of the analog again in my setup, especially with the different EFX we have available now. I also have the Behringer Deepmind-12 and it is a monster. I have only scratched the surface with it, but it gives some wonderfully deep pad sounds that can only be done with analog.

I love both, but remember a time when analog was really the only thing around. The options we have today are amazing and frankly, Behringer is really hitting it out of the park with all of their offerings (even if they are basically reissues with more options). They are not stopping and I think that I read that they've got about 26 different models coming down the pipe in the future.

A hybrid model is also pretty neat, especially since a lot of what we liked back in the day were hybrids too. People still have a lot of love for the Roland JX stuff, as well as the Korg DW series. They were hybrids and sounded great. My first synth ever was a Korg Poly-800.

I think that the next barrier modern analog will face is to really get over the 4-voice limitation that a lot of analog has. Sure, there are the Prologue and Deepmind synths that offer more than 4 voices affordably, but being able to have a 16-24-32 voice analog as an affordable option may be the next step.

I do not need monophonic analog. I am not a 'blip and beep' musician. I need more polyphony to truly layer a pad over my piano or whatever other sound I am playing. That is why I bought the Minilogue XD module shortly after getting the Minilogue XD. 4 voices of poly was just not going to work for me. I am considering getting the Deepmind-12 Module when they come back in stock as well, just so I can have enough poly to really make a pad come alive while play live with another sound.

Analog hype is not dead; I think that it will expand and maybe even hybrid is the way they will go.

Grace,
Harry
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:29 pm    Post subject: Matriarch Reply with quote

I just got a Moog Matriarch, and it's an amazing synth. 4 Oscillators of analog fun, stereo filters and delays. Not to mention modulation routings, adn the 90 eurorack patch points. Arpeggiator and Sequencer. So plenty of Analog bliss to go around. Plus that Moog sound. it's not over until it's over!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was babysitting one of these EMS Synthi in the 70's as my friend travelled for a couple of months
http://www.vintagesynth.com/misc/synthi.php

My friend was anxious that capacitors would not last, and recommendations were to at least once a week have it powered up, or at most once a month. Electrolytics would disintegrate otherwise.

It was at the time almost 3 months brutto average salary, so a lot of money. Like Moog One in todays terms, I would say.

But you had to tune to pitch on one knob, and another knob was to get octave right. So back and forth many times until tuned to ensemble pitch.

He had on a gig to 15 minutes before entering stage, in the dark, go in and tune it as good as it gets - to be able to play shortly as entering stage.

So modern analogs is a breeze to work with, I think.

I had like a flashback a bit doing Neutron when I got it. Similar thinking in regard to a matrix and thinking voltages and stuff.

Neutron had a clever tuning procedure. But Model D you had to use screwdriver for calibration tune up so I avoided that one.

I just think these units are fantastic either way.

More true analog voices - Prophet 6 and OB-6 are polychainable to 12 voices.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narioso wrote:


More true analog voices - Prophet 6 and OB-6 are polychainable to 12 voices.


The Korg Minilogue XD is able to chain up to two units in total. That is why I bought the XD module as well. That way, I can have 8 voices.

The Behringer Deepmind-12 is poly-chainable in a different way. I believe that they can be chained up to 16 units. I know it is possible with the Model D and the manual for the Deepmind-12 says that it is poly-chainable as well. I could imagine a user possibly getting 15 more units (one keyboarded Deepmind-12 and 15 Deepmind-12 Modules) and add to their existing unit for MASSIVE polyphony on the scale of 192 notes. Imagine the pads you could program with that...

The only problem is that they are mono-timbral so they would only respond to one MIDI channel at a time. I think that I end up getting at least 1 of the Deepmind-12 desktop modules. Maybe I would have a total 4 units (adding 3 modules to my existing Deepmind-12 keyboard). That would be 48 notes of polyphony for pretty massive pads and other sounds (assuming that your programs were only using 1 oscillator).

For many of the sounds I program/use, the max voices I use in a program is up to 4 (generally for leads and deep synth sounds). That just leaves 3 notes of polyphony for chords.

I cannot imagine a company claiming a whole bunch of polyphony for their systems in the keyboard+module fashion. AFAIK, the Prologue 16 is the only one on the market with 16 voices that is affordable.

Grace,
Harry
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Seems analogue hype is over Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
When i look at the latest best selling keyboards, Wavestate, Hydrasynth, jupiter X, waldorf Iridium and Kyra. I think its save to conclude that The analogue hype is over..

Seems like everyone is having much more fun with their wavestate thne any analogue released in the last decade?


Thomann are the largest synth seller in the world. Here are their top 5 sellers:

1. Behringer Poly D (Analogue)

2. Sequential Poly 6 (Analogue)

3. Arturia Microfreak (Digital)

4. Moog Matriarch (Analogue)

5. Korg Arp Odyssey (Analogue)


Hype?? - as a Juno106 and CS80 owner - I've seen both take quantum leaps in price in only the past few months.

Mint condition Juno 106's are achieving in the ball park of $2000, while a mint condition CS80 can expect to achieve between $30,000 and $40,000 (up about $15,000 in the past two years alone).

So despite the DM12, JU-06, JU-08A, AIRA, Roland Cloud and on and on - all offering credible Juno 106 replicas - the appetite for original Juno 106's has never been stronger!!


The underlying reason - the most iconic and historically important analogue synthesizers are, actually, among the most important musical instruments of the past 50 years - have stood the test of time, and offer a sought after sound, and performance experience.

When the Hydra-synth and Jupiter X feature on albums as iconic as Head Hunters, Songs in the Key of Life, Toto 4, Thriller, Bladerunner, and on an on - then we can regard them as being of a similar standard - until then - they are "in the noise" with regard to stature among synthesizers, or musical instruments in general.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Musicwithharry wrote:


The Behringer Deepmind-12 is poly-chainable in a different way. I believe that they can be chained up to 16 units. I know it is possible with the Model D and the manual for the Deepmind-12 says that it is poly-chainable as well. I could imagine a user possibly getting 15 more units (one keyboarded Deepmind-12 and 15 Deepmind-12 Modules) and add to their existing unit for MASSIVE polyphony on the scale of 192 notes. Imagine the pads you could program with that...



What do you mean by "poly-chainable"?. You can chain as many of any MIDI synth you want.

As for massive polyphony - the OASYS is capable of that - out of the box! Take MOD-7 - sure it's an FM synth - but - if you use an algorithm that doesn't involve FM - just all 6 oscillators side by side, then you have a 6 oscillator per voice virtual analog synth with about 50 note polyyphony - that's 300 oscillators running at once. Indeed you can stack voices up to 16 time using its "polyphonic unison" feature - giving a massive 96 oscillators - on a given note! And every oscillator detunable, and with random phase to make it sound incredibly realistic from an analog stand point.

So the kinds of attributes your linking to Behringer have been around since the dawn of MIDI - I regularly stack 3 JD800s and 2 JD990s (early '90s) synths, while, as said above, the 2005 released OASYS provides, to this day in hardware, unprecedented capabilities in polyphonic synthesis - true polyphonic voice architectures, across 7 very deep specified synthesizer engines, with massive numbers of oscillators and polyphony with near zero latency.
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Seems analogue hype is over Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Bachus wrote:
When i look at the latest best selling keyboards, Wavestate, Hydrasynth, jupiter X, waldorf Iridium and Kyra. I think its save to conclude that The analogue hype is over..

Seems like everyone is having much more fun with their wavestate thne any analogue released in the last decade?


Thomann are the largest synth seller in the world. Here are their top 5 sellers:

1. Behringer Poly D (Analogue)

2. Sequential Poly 6 (Analogue)

3. Arturia Microfreak (Hybrid)

4. Moog Matriarch (Analogue)

5. Korg Arp Odyssey (Analogue)


Hype?? - as a Juno106 and CS80 owner - I've seen both take quantum leaps in price in only the past few months.

Mint condition Juno 106's are achieving in the ball park of $2000, while a mint condition CS80 can expect to achieve between $30,000 and $40,000 (up about $15,000 in the past two years alone).

So despite the DM12, JU-06, JU-08A, AIRA, Roland Cloud and on and on - all offering credible Juno 106 replicas - the appetite for original Juno 106's has never been stronger!!


The underlying reason - the most iconic and historically important analogue synthesizers are, actually, among the most important musical instruments of the past 50 years - have stood the test of time, and offer a sought after sound, and performance experience.

When the Hydra-synth and Jupiter X feature on albums as iconic as Head Hunters, Songs in the Key of Life, Toto 4, Thriller, Bladerunner, and on an on - then we can regard them as being of a similar standard - until then - they are "in the noise" with regard to stature among synthesizers, or musical instruments in general.


Agghh my reply got ruined by accidentally navigating away from the page! Oh well.

A summary of my rather wordy originally reply is:

I fixed the error in your categorising of the MicroFreak.

The Sequential Poly 6 can do a Juno 106 and their 2nd hand prices are being jacked up by the douchebags who bought them all at the beginning of the 00's when they saw the prices starting to climb back then and recognised an investment opportunity. All those old Rolands are "cool" synths to own and say you own. You are correct that those albums have a bit to do with the prices, but that is a price to pay for owning a piece of nostalgia, not a musical instrument that can't be replaced.

The CS-80 prices too are those being charged to take advantage of the analogue hype. They were outrageously expensive when they were current, you need to remember that too. I believe that when Behringer make their BS80, musicians while finally be able to use that sound for under $4K (currently Deckard's Dream will provide close to the CS-80 experience, add a polyphonic after-touch keyboard and you have your CS-80), but the collectors will still pay stupid prices for one.

Vintage synth collectors are real. They are like vintage guitar collectors or vintage skateboard collectors. They only own the synths, don't play them. They are pieces of art. They are decorations that take up less space than an MG or VW.

The Roland boutiques, the Yamaha Refaces and to a lesser extent, the Korg reissues are all hobbled versions of the originals. In the case of the Korg reissues, it is the size. With the other two companies, they are not complete reissues the originals and are missing either half the voice count or even half the voice module architecture. Not to mention neither Roland nor Yamaha have released an analogue since the 80's. That is why they haven't made it to the top 5 sellers at Thomann.
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Stuff I'm using: Umm right now, well there's a Volca Drum, a Micro Freak, an ADX-1, a Pulse, a Blofeld, a UNO Drum, KeyStep/Beatstep Pro/Keystep Pro (one of each), a Circuit, a LiveTrak L-12 and this nonsense: The Brief-case as it was about a bit over a year ago (the the complete ridiculous GAS monster collection here)and here
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the thing; A Sequential 6 _can't_ do a Juno106. It's all fine margins at this level of debate - but - they matter!

I know the Juno 106 inside out - I really do - I've owned one since 1984. It can do things that even a Juno60 can't do - and vice versa - it's not a better or worse thing. It's - each is unique - but - the Juno 106 is known, and sought after, for real, value based, artistic based, culture based reasons. You're wrong to look at high prices and always thing it's a superficial market thing! I understand the temptation to think that way when you are not willing to pay those prices - but - here's the thing: ALL top artists are! Every time. EVERY top artist only uses the authentic. Lady GaGa played a tribute to Steve Wonder recently on stage. It was a _real_ Fender Rhodes piano on stage. Not a Nord Stage, or SV-2 - an actual Fender Rhodes.

Here's why CS80s are so expensive - I've three of them - in mint condition: it has taken me since 1992 - 28 years - to get the three of them to this condition. It has taken one of the top restorers in the world hundreds of hours over mutlipe visits (from Dublin to London) over those years to get them to that state. It has cost thousands, per instrument. And - they are _absolutely stunning_. I mean - this is the instrument that Steve Porcaro used on Rosanne and Africa; that Vangelis used on Bladerunner and Stevie Wonder used on countless tracks. It really does deliver. It's _very_ _very_ special. So combining that specialness, with the expense to get them to a very special state - is a real thing.

The Behringer DS80 will come along - and it will be good - and I will likely buy 2 or 3 of them; but it will not every be a CS80. Again - there is validity in "quality". Quality doesn't stop for synthesizers. You can't have it that we can claim high quality and low-quality for every other facet of life, but not for synths. You can't claim that a fake Rolex is a fake Rolex; but a fake CS80 is the real thing. You don't get to call that. Society does. And society always knows.

So the DS80 will come along, and those who either do not value "quality" or are unable to discern the difference, will buy a DS80 and will be happy with it for a few years before they sell it on ebay; but there will still be artists who value quality - including top artists who will always only tolerate top quality - and the CS80 will climb even higher in price - many project it'll top out at about £50,000 sterling - perhaps £55,000 (where the Moog 55 is now).

A sequential 6 can't be a Juno 106 - that's why the Juno106 is sought after! A $100 Yamaha student violin looks the same as a Stradivarius - but it isn't one!!
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