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Blazenko
Junior Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2020
Posts: 82
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 Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:18 am Post subject: Increase sample number |
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Please KORG,
increase the sample number over 20.000 .
Please 
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Korg PA4X Musikant |
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Asena
Approved Merchant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 2549
Location: Sweden/Malmoe
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Increase sample number |
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| Blazenko wrote: | Please KORG,
increase the sample number over 20.000 .
Please |
I have the same Problems.
I,m making NEW drum kits, And its impossible to even try, Some of my DK,s will have 800/1200 ksf files.
Soo PLEASE Mr paolo Tramanoni Andrea And Rest Of the KORG TEAM, Help us with this , Some of us need this badly.
_________________
www.globalsound.se
KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10
MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
LOTS OF SAMPLE SOUNDS!
KorgPaManager V 5 |
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Aripearlmusic
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 338
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Im up to 14,863 samples and 1.46gb after compression with over 600 sounds, and over 270 kits
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Ari Pearl Music
@AriPearlMusic |
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Asena
Approved Merchant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 2549
Location: Sweden/Malmoe
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Thats good for you,
Now try to sample the BFD, Just one Drum kit. And see if it,s gonna work 
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www.globalsound.se
KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10
MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
LOTS OF SAMPLE SOUNDS!
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Aripearlmusic
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Jun 2018
Posts: 338
Location: BROOKLYN NY
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I sampled every kit in SD3 with all of the expansions and NI 60s-80s, modern kit, studio kit, all the GGD libraries
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Ari Pearl Music
@AriPearlMusic |
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BR
Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 1500
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Increase sample number |
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| Asena wrote: | | Blazenko wrote: | Please KORG,
increase the sample number over 20.000 .
Please |
I have the same Problems.
I,m making NEW drum kits, And its impossible to even try, Some of my DK,s will have 800/1200 ksf files.
Soo PLEASE Mr paolo Tramanoni Andrea And Rest Of the KORG TEAM, Help us with this , Some of us need this badly. |
+1,
More samples numbers and more Users Slot please, if this is not possible technically for Korg to implement
so I am wondering what's the advantage to have 1.5GB of RAM in PA4X.
Am I missing a point? |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1837
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: Increase sample number |
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| BR wrote: | | .. wondering what's the advantage to have 1.5GB of RAM in PA4X .. |
| siebenhirter wrote: | .. Depending on the application the average size / duration of a sample is not an criterion, because it is up to the user if, for example, short snippets / time slices of 0.06 seconds are sufficient for his needs.
At 44100 Hz / 16 bit you can fill a memory of 1.5 GB with 15000 samples (a 105 KB, 1.2 seconds running time) before it becomes full.
If you fill the memory with short samples (a 5.2 KB, 0.06 sec), then 15,000 such samples only take up 76 MB - i.e. only 5% of the available memory space.
For such applications, the number of samples could be increased to 300,000 without exceeding the storage volume of 1.5 GB. Depending on the needs, this doesn't seem very realistic, because there are certainly users who rather rate the average size of a sample of 105 KB as a limitation for 15,000 samples. |
| Blazenko wrote: | | ... increase the sample number over 20.000 .... |
With November 2020 you can find some calculations of users for the thread "Reached 15048 Samples":
- how many samples are needed for a style (960 samples),
- what a drum kit consumes even without round robin (488 stereo samples),
- how much an 88-note piano needs (1,408 stereo samples) etc.
Now from the stock of musical resources of the Pa4x (including the Direct and User data) a selection can be made for a song from - for example - about 800 DrumKits, over 1800 Styles and a lot of sounds for different songs, for which all individual samples should be residing in memory?
If you would like to equip all Styles with time-sliced data, use individual samples for each Sound and DrumKit - even if they differ only slightly or not at all with hundreds of drum kits, because double memorized with different sample-names only - than it really is not enough to increase the number of storable sample numbers over 20,000.
[b]Not even 200,000 are enough to provide an hughe amount of samples residing in memory for all possible musical resources. It's not comprehensible why all samples (*) in the memory are needed to be present, while anyway only a tiny fraction of musical resources (styles, sounds, drum kits) can be used at the same time.
Instead of inflating the number of sample slots, Korg should rather think about how to simplify loading processes in order to have the samples required for a performance available for as long as necessary, without them being buried forever in memory and wasting memory.
(*) Including orphaned old samples that no longer are used or are forgotten duplicates or are not recognize because they are absolutely the same, but were loaded with different names etc
For me the amount of 15.000 samples is enough. Better I could see that the functions banished in the globals (e.g. StylePreferences) can be saved individually with the KbdSets, that StyleToKbdSet can also be used with Entry-Type Style and that the functionality of the midrange series at least increases to the level that one had and was used to with previous models (Pa3x / 800/500).
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Blazenko
Junior Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2020
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:37 am Post subject: |
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„ For me the amount of 15.000 samples is enough.“
Thank you Siebenhirter, but I think you do not even have a Korg PA4X.
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Korghelper
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 584
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:22 am Post subject: |
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For SOME people, zero samples is enough. But I doubt you’d like to listen to THEM, would you?
Tell you one thing... if Korg actually listened to us and drastically upped the sample slots, you sure as hell wouldn’t complain about it, would you? 😂 |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1837
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:38 am Post subject: Reached 15048 samples - increase to 20.000 |
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| Korghelper wrote: | | ..Tell you one thing... if Korg actually listened to us and drastically upped the sample slots, you sure as hell wouldn’t complain about it, would you? .. |
Of course not - but I would have expected to hear how many samples you need for some single performances. Shouldn't you think about whether it is necessary to have all samples for all possible Performances constantly available in the memory, instead of having them available with a quick and simple loading routine when you actually need them?
| Korghelper wrote: | The real issue is that arrangers are built around reduced instruction chipsets, which are obviously cheaper that full CPU’s and MOBO’s, but are complex to design and manufacture, and don’t get updated with the speed that computer hardware does. The truth is, there has been little in the way of advanced RISC design in years.
In fairness, the market for arrangers is microscopic compared to computers. R&D costs big bucks, and few arrangers get sold. So we sit here with decade old chipsets and wonder why ..... |
This your posting of January 7th (thread "Reached 15048 samples") was not an answer either, but at least a reason why the demand for improved loading processes seems more sensible than increasing the number of samples. Increasing them gradually - even if it would possible with the current hardware - despite the fact that each time again it would be far too small to cover constantly increasing needs!
| Korghelper wrote: | | .. For SOME people, zero samples is enough. But I doubt you’d like to listen to THEM, would you? .. |
I do not think samples in Pa4x are qualitatively so poor, that they would not be suitable to create just as satisfactory sounds with the existing tools (and 15048 samples added) as with a huge number of individual samples (or only slightly increased to 20,000 for a short time), constantly residing in memory separately for all of individual styles, drum kits and sound programs.
At least this applies in case of a Pa-Arranger primarily is not seen as a substitute for professional sampling.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Asena
Approved Merchant
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 2549
Location: Sweden/Malmoe
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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There is a fight between us here instead of trying to understand one thing!
If you like to have a God Sound, You cant compromise!
A god sound needs RAM, Sample Slot, And Expertise.
A god Keyboard brand Needs to listen to the owners, KORG was better in old days, We really miss that god connections to the creators, like Tramanoni, He was and are still the best connection to KORG and to Users.
_________________
www.globalsound.se
KORG PA 5-X/YAMAHA GENOS 2/YAMAHA A 5000
LIONSTRACK X 76 & GROOVE XR
MEDELI AKX-10
MacbookproM2-Ssd/Logic/Neuman/Kali Audio8/Komplette14SDD/ Apollo Twin/PIONEER XDJ RX 2
LOTS OF SAMPLE SOUNDS!
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korg1
Approved Merchant
Joined: 17 Nov 2002
Posts: 955
Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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I am afraid "Elvis has left the building"
Pa4x's update is not what Korg is thinking of right now,you can tell from the new stuff coming out.
I guess we have to live with that and just keep going on.....
I know there will be a time soon,when nobody will need to buy a new synth/arranger or workstation from Korg again.
Just a controller ,a software and a tablet.....
Then,they will have to do something about it...
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1837
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:07 pm Post subject: Reached 15048 samples - increase to 20.000 |
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| Asena wrote: | | .. god sound needs RAM, Sample Slot .... A god Keyboard brand Needs to listen to the owners, KORG was better in old days, We really miss that god connections to the creators, like Tramanoni, He was and are still the best connection to KORG and to Users. |
Hello Timur,
As far as the support from Korg is concerned and its willingness to incorporate the wishes of its customers into the product development, I agree with you and also that for a good sound there shouldn't be compromised.
But that doesn't mean that you have to automatically increase sample slots from 15,000 to 20,000 for a good sound of a Pa-arranger. This, too, merely would be the extension of a limit to an arbitrary limit with the new compromise for users, whose needs require more than 20,000 slots, for to call up any sound with individually pre-programmed samples in direct access at any time for any type of music and for a variety of performances .But this has nothing to do with quality and good sound, but rather with more comfort.
This thread is not a war, but simply represents different opinions about whether you need to have a lot of samples with direct access available in the memory of a device at all times. If the technical approach is missing, you have to think about other possible solutions, provided that these again only represent compromises ---> https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-best-hardware-samplers.
An equivalent for good styles - there shouldn't be any compromises either: expanding from 1.2480 locations (user, favorite, direct banks) to 2,000 would not automatically result in higher quality styles. Just as the expansion from 15,000 to 20,000 sample slots does not automatically produce higher quality sounds.
Simple calculation: at 44100 Hz / 16 bit you can fill a memory of 1.5 GB with 15,000 samples for a total of running time approx five hours. So each sample has a running time of 1.2 seconds. With the same memory size increasing to 20,000 samples reduces the runtime of a sample to 0.9 seconds - but that is a considerable deterioration in quality of a sound and the opposite of uncompromising - and what you think to get with an amount of more sample slots!
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Korghelper
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 584
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Sieben, it’s not about time per slice. Timesliced loops are generally tiny samples, 1/16 of a bar typically. But you need a LOT of them....
All I’m trying to say though is yes, perhaps we are baying at the moon. Perhaps we are very unlikely to get this particular feature. I’ve detailed several of them. But isn’t that our right? Do you not have some pet feature that seems unlikely, but you aren’t willing to be silent about?
And how do you feel about people that, because they may not need your pet feature, tell you that you should shut up and stop asking for it?
I may not give a rats about your pet feature. But I will NEVER tell you that, because I don’t need it, you should hush up and stop talking about it... Who knows? Maybe you’ll get yours. Maybe we’ll get ours. And the arranger will be a better musical tool for it.
In the end, isn’t that what we ALL want? |
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kleant
Full Member
Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:03 am Post subject: |
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I have said it long time ago everyone has its own needs and uses when it comes on how to organize samples and sets. I don't understand why the proved wrong make it so hard and technical when actually it's very easy to run out of sample slots and increasing it benefits everyone.
Let's say you have two different sets, first one have 350Mb and the second 450Mb but when trying to combine the 2 together you can't because not the space but will run out of sample slots even before reaching the 1Gb. There are a lot other situations when users have run out of sample slots. Merging from different sets sample data it's impossible to go near the 1.5Gb without extensive manual sample managing/sorting/deleting and still running out of sample slots. For me max I can go it's 650-750Mb, I have seen some other sets with 1.2Gb but I personally have never seen a set with 1.5Gb yet!
In my opinion maybe I'm wrong but the number should be at least 3 times more than the limit space to use it freely 45k. 15k for me is good for 500Mb max to freely use without wasting valuable time. To increase sample slots from the OS maybe possible but I agree with above "Elvis has left the building" Korg don't want maybe for marketing purposes they have shifted new products to simple other models with less power and even same or less sample slots. |
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