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B.Safe
Full Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2018
Posts: 145
Location: Paris, France
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 Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Pa700 vs SX700 |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | What kind of generalizing the articulation one found more powerful for realistic sounds is subjective. |
You're right, it's subjective.
I'm just giving the opinion of someone who actually uses the instruments he's talking about and who has found that Korg's approach gives a more realistic result. 
And by the way, Yamaha has not generalized their articulations, they use specific programmation for each kind of articulation which is not accessible to the user.
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PA1000, TC-Helicon Perform-VK, FCB1010, Reaper, MobileSheets |
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Giner
Platinum Member
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 1347
Location: Alberta
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Pa700 vs SX700 |
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| B.Safe wrote: | ... I'm just giving the opinion of someone who actually uses the instruments he's talking about and who has found that Korg's approach gives a more realistic result.
And by the way, Yamaha has not generalized their articulations, they use specific programmation for each kind of articulation which is not accessible to the user .... |
As mentioned some postings befor I do not want to beaten to death also this topic as usually is done so many times when it comes to arranger keyboards (with subjectives -- unfortunately I didn't stick to it).
It is ok you think that Korg's approach gives a more realistic result - but also with Yamahas articulation is accessible to users:
SA-Voices provide expressive control in real time and benefits with same playability as DNC-Voices.
As you mentioned sax an example: play a C and then a D in a very legato way, you will hear the note change seamlessly, as though a saxophone player played it in a single breath. Next example with the Concert Guitar Voice: play a C note and then the E just above in a very legato but firm way, the pitch slides up from C to E. Depending on how you play, other effects such as “shaking” or breath noises (for the Trumpet Voice), or finger noises (for the Guitar Voice) are produced etc.
If SA-Voice of SX is selected then icons appear indicating what articulations are available and how to use them like:
- moving joystick upward
- moving joystick horizontally to bend the pitch. When the multiple keys are pressed, only
one note’s pitch bends.
- pressing any key repeatedly to switch among the sounds (waveforms).
- playing keys in legato fashion.
- holding down one key, press another key and release it to play trills.
- pressing the key strongly.
- pressing the key strongly while moving the joystick upward.
etc like pressing/holding the foot pedal or using assignable button ...
| Biggles wrote: | ..... Have you played these keyboards back to back? So I take it the answer is No.
Hence the content of your post is totally irrelevant and is best ignored. |
Is there anything irrelevant in content of my post to be discussed - if yes, lets talk about.
Does your posting have to do anything with the thread - is not it totally irrelevant and is best to be ignored?
If you read what I was talking about on Fri Dec 20, you can choose any answer on your provocant, idiotic questions that fits your bias. If something should be ignored here, it are unojective, spiteful postings like yours.
Really shameful for you are your postings without any factual information about the content of the thread. Seems to be symptomatical for you as usual when you force ridiculous postings if you lack arguments.
Do not think you are the great judge here to ask suggestive questions that have to be answered in line with your opinion, if once you had the opportunity to briefly play a keyboard other than the Pa700. Think, this is nothing unusual for others who often uses different brand or models of musical instruments.
Be sure others also know what they are talking about - questions about functions and features will be answered, but no provocant unnecessary questions without any arguments.
If you do not like my postings ignore it, but do not make a bad mood here to animate others to ignore postings that you do not like.
Hope moderator would be active, because similar posts from Biggles unfortunately often happens here! Annoying and dispensable postings really spoil the willingness to objectively argue here.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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B.Safe
Full Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2018
Posts: 145
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Pa700 vs SX700 |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | but also with Yamahas articulation is accessible to users:
SA-Voices provide expressive control in real time and benefits with same playability as DNC-Voices.
As you mentioned sax an example: play a C and then a D in a very legato way, you will hear the note change seamlessly, as though a saxophone player played it in a single breath. Next example with the Concert Guitar Voice: play a C note and then the E just above in a very legato but firm way, the pitch slides up from C to E. Depending on how you play, other effects such as “shaking” or breath noises (for the Trumpet Voice), or finger noises (for the Guitar Voice) are produced etc.
If SA-Voice of SX is selected then icons appear indicating what articulations are available and how to use them like:
- moving joystick upward
- moving joystick horizontally to bend the pitch. When the multiple keys are pressed, only
one note’s pitch bends.
- pressing any key repeatedly to switch among the sounds (waveforms).
- playing keys in legato fashion.
- holding down one key, press another key and release it to play trills.
- pressing the key strongly.
- pressing the key strongly while moving the joystick upward.
etc like pressing/holding the foot pedal or using assignable button ... |
I know all these Yamaha articulation capabilities because they are all found in Korg's DNC sounds.
But what I mean is that these capabilities are fixed by Yamaha, the user can use them in existing sounds, but he can't change them or create new ones, both because the corresponding parameters are not accessible and also because we don't know how it works internally.
On PAs, on the contrary, if a sound doesn't totally suit me, I can adapt it to the situation by modifying any parameter, including all the potential articulations.
We are therefore no longer limited by the quality of the sounds provided by the manufacturer.
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PA1000, TC-Helicon Perform-VK, FCB1010, Reaper, MobileSheets |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: PSR-SX700 vs KORG PA700 |
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| Randelph wrote: | Doing a quick perusal of the SX900, the things that'd sway me over the Pa1000:
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- I would hope the number of insert fx for the upper voices is more than 1!
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I'm pretty sure you can put an effect on each keyboard playable voice, instead of on only one as on the PA1000. Maybe someone else can confirm, since this is from my reading of the slightly obtuse docs and not any first-hand experience.
| B.Safe wrote: | | siebenhirter wrote: | | While you want to create DNC sounds with the Pa700, the PSR-SX700 lets you choose from a variety of Voice Types (S.Art, Live, Cool, Sweet, LifeSFX, MegaVoice). |
Yamaha gives many different names to the sounds for marketing reasons.
All these mechanisms are integrated into the DNC operation at Korg.
Just two examples :Yamaha's Live sounds use stereo samples, which is what DNC can do in a basic way. You can even use up to 2 x 24 multisamples.
Megavoice uses very large samples while DNC allows any sample length for any sound. Actually, in PA's, all sounds can be at the same time superarticulation, megavoice, live, cool etc... and you can make them yourself. |
Yes, Yamaha's "Live" sounds are sampled in stereo. PA1000 also has some sounds that are sampled in stereo, they just don't give them their own name (but you can find them by searching the wave list for the word "stereo"). But you cannot use DNC to "create" the equivalent of a "Live" sound... something was either sampled in stereo, or it was not.
Megavoice is not about using very large samples. It's about having alternate sound attributes available within a single note's sample across velocity ranges. Megavoices cannot effectively be played from the keyboard. Rather, they are used in a highly controlled manner by backing tracks. Korg uses separate sample sets instead of embedding articulations at various velocity locations within a single sample set (i.e. Megavoice). Both approaches work, it just involves different programming techniques on the part of the style creators. DNC is not a factor here, either.
"Sweet" refers to recording an instrument with natural additional articulation created by the player as part of the primary sample. For example, a "Sweet" instrument may have the player's natural vibrato recorded as part of the sample (as opposed to sampling with no vibrato, and later simulating a vibrato when desired using an LFO), it gives you a more authentic sounding version of the effect. Again, DNC cannot "create" such a voice. If Korg did not provide a sample of an instrument being played with the player's natural vibrato, it's not within DNC's capabilities to let you create one. Korg does indeed have comparable voices with articulations like player-generated vibrato "baked into" the sample, they just don't have any kind of special name for them. But again, DNC cannot be used to create your own "sweet" voice.. i.e. something was either originally sampled with vibrato, or it was not.
I believe "Cool" similarly refers to recording electric instruments with various processing as part of the sample, instead of recording them unadorned and using the keyboard's own effects to recreate whatever effect you wanted on it. The same DNC caveat applies as with sweet... DNC can't give you samples that aren't already there. (Of course, you can load alternate samples into a PA1000, but that has nothing to do with DNC.)
So it is not true that "all these mechanisms are integrated into the DNC operation at Korg" nor can you "make them yourself." DNC, however, IS a rough equivalent to Super Articulation. Here are images showing what a player can do to trigger a DNC or SA effect, they are quite similar...
Though similar, there are some differences. One difference is that both keyboards can trigger a different sample based on a higher velocity ("stronger") strike... Yamaha considers that to be part of SA, while Korg does not consider that to be part of DNC. But that's just a matter of a company's own definition/terminology... again, the capabilities are similar, existing in both boards. Though each also has some things the other does not... Korg has two separate legato triggers based on keyboard range, Yamaha seems to have a few options Korg does not... single note pitch bend, "round robin" triggering (where repeatiing a note can trigger a different sample), and the trill function. (If these functions are available elsewhere in the Korg, let me know!)
As for which instrument has a greater number of such sounds (SA/DNC, Live/Stereo, Cool/recorded with players' own articulations, etc.), I don't know, it's hard to determine, since unlike on the Yamaha, so many of the Korg sounds with these attributes are not annotated any particular way. In the end, though, you'll either prefer the sounds of one or the other... and it will probably vary with the sound (e.g. you might like jazz guitar better on one but organ better on the other, or whatever).
Anyway, back to the main point of the thread, in comparing the PA1000 to the PSR-SX900, these look like the most significant differences to me:
PA1000 advantages:
* aftertouch
* deep sound editability
* can incorporate external sounds over MIDI
* tilt screen
* lighter weight
PSR-SX900 advantages:
* assignable outs
* more insert effects
* three selectable functions for each of the two assignable knobs (Korg has just one function per knob, and a smaller range of possible functions to choose from)
* ability to redefine where the bottom-of-screen navigation buttons take you (i.e. you can create shortcuts to the screens you need to get to most often)
* 6 well-placed assignable buttons that you can have perform your choice of a variety of most needed functions
* overall layout seems cleaner, with groups of differnt kinds of buttons for different purposes better differentiated from each other (Korg is more like a continuous sea of buttons!)
* what seems like a higher resolution screen, also providing more options on the screen at a time (e.g. more selectable sounds)
* I believe speakers face both up more toward the player AND out to the audience (vs. only the former)
* probably better feeling action
I've seen some different comparisons about how they handle seamless sound transistions... they each seem to be able to do them in some circumstances, where it may be problematic in others. I don't know which is really stronger here overall.
I have not actually played the Yamaha, so all this is what I gather from the docs, videos, and other online conversations. My feeling is that the Korg beats Yamaha in functionality/flexibility, the Yamaha has the nicer operational interface/ergonomics, and then it's subjective as to which sounds better, depending on personal taste and which exact sounds you're comparing. Though yes, as discussed earlier, Korg gives you more ability to alter a sound to your taste than Yamaha does, you can build your own variations.
Last edited by Scott on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Biggles
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 1012
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: PSR-SX700 vs KORG PA700 |
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| Scott wrote: |
I have not actually played the Yamaha, so all this is what I gather from the docs, videos, and other online conversations. My feeling is that the Korg beats Yamaha in functionality/flexibility, the Yamaha has the nicer operational interface/ergonomics, and then it's subjective as to which sounds better, depending on personal taste and which exact sounds you're comparing. Though yes, as discussed earlier, Korg gives you more ability to alter a sound to your taste than Yamaha does, you can build your own variations. |
I would agree with you, there is to much reliance On specs and listening to online reviews where the videos and sound have bandwidth limitations resulting in a sound quality that is not replicated when you play the keyboard in the Music Store.
I have had hands on with all the PA models and the Yamaha SX 700 and 900.
There is no substitution for hands on and yes it is very subjective, but specs mean nothing if the sound output is not to ones liking or can be readily adjusted.
It is quite a while (Feb 2020 to be exact) since I last played an SX but the look and build quality seems vastly superior to the prior S models, so its pretty even between the makes.
Sound quality of the SX is another matter they range from excellent to James Last on a very bad day, that is to shrill and piercing brass. which is a tech term for cr4p.
I found that the SX acoustic pianos were better than those in the 1000. Continuing playing I then played various random sounds from each category for me it was swings either way but overall Korg would be my choice of having sounds that please my ears.
Features and specs do not matter is you do not like the sounds emanating from the keyboard.
There is no substitution for playing.
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Biggles
Lancashire, UK |
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