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Good TR76 replacement?

 
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Kukulkan



Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject: Good TR76 replacement? Reply with quote

Hi,

I play my TR76 for years and basically happy with it. Sadly, it starts to show aging and I wonder if there are good replacements.

This are my criteria:

  • Price maximum 1.700,- EUR / 1.800,- USD
  • Suitable for live busic, including triggering a 3rd sound using external keyboard (worked fine with TR76, even split the second keyboard into two sounds). Have to be able to store at least 32 setups for quick access including all splits and voices etc.
  • Offers bread and butter sounds for live band (top40, rock, pop).
  • Startup time max 30 seconds.
  • 73 or 76 keys, but not 88 because of the weight (will have to carry it). less than 73 is not enough as I always split the keyboard.
  • Modern or up to date (should be designed in the last 5 years).

I looked at Krome EX, i3, Vox Continental and SV-2. But I always find things I don't like. SV-2 and Vox Continental do not allow full split and a second keyboard with a third sound. i3 is also limited in split options and seem to have aged sounds (similar to my TR). Due to tests, the Krome EX is slow (1 Minute startup time) and offers only a few good quality sounds.

Is there any Korg keyboard missing in my list that fulfills my needs? Any hints? Or do I have to look at Roland? I don't like the flat sound of the Yamaha keyboards at all. Never heard a Yamaha that I like. So is Roland the way to go? Or others?
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Scott
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Joined: 16 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides Roland, the Kurzweil SP6-7 might be a possibility (or PC4-7 if you can stretch the budget a little).
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stuartpryer
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi.

If it was me i would look at the korg nautilus 73. Its over budget but korg do refurbished / guaranteed ones which may be in budget.

Cheers

Stuart
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Stuart Pryer
Triton Controller, Midi toolbox and Fractal Sequencer Software
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Kukulkan



Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys.

The Kurzweil SP6-7 looks interesting. The manual talks about 4 zones with variable key-zones and assigned channels. So the split and second keyboard should work. Also, the weight is fine (~8KB). But the UI looks very much like for a 90ies keyboard and is definitely outdated. But maybe I will give it a try.

I also looked at the Nautilus. It is huge and a weight of ~15 KG compared to the ~9 KG of my TR 76 is very heavy. I don't like to carry such a monster through the streets and into bars. Really. Also, this thing needs 2 Minutes and 28 Seconds to start (see here). This is inacceptable Sad

I forgot to mention that I neither need an apreggiator nor a sequencer. I don't need a sampler, no need for a vocoder and I don't need individual outputs (stereo master out is fine, would be great if symmetrical to prevent the need for a DI box).

Any other suggestions? I'm really desperate. I mean, here must be an affordable and good sounding keyboard for live musicians out there?
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst the Nautilus would be a distinct step up, in terms of functionality, the Korg Krome EX is pretty close to the TR76 in what it can do, with better sounds and very little learning to do.
.
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Kukulkan



Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the Korg Krome EX is pretty close to the TR76 in what it can do

Thanks, but I learned that Krome EX takes more than a Minute to start. Not sure if I like to go this way... But if I want to stay with Korg, this seems the best option for the moment.

Does anyone have experience with keyboards from other manufacturers in comparison? Kurtzweil was an interesting hint but the bad thing about Kurtzweil SP6 is the thing that it feels like buying 90ies technology (display).

I only want to prevent Yamaha and are open for any others, even exotic.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the only brands to choose from for lightweight 7x-keys are Korg, Yamaha, Roland, Kurzweil, Nord, Dexibell, Hammond. I think the last three possibilities will all be beyond your price range (Stage 3, Combo J7, SK Pro respectively). You might also consider a Numa Compact 2X which has the 88 keys you don't want, but is lighter than many of the 7x-key boards. You also mentioned i3 which has only 61 keys... if you'd actually consider a 61-key Korg, you could look at Kross.
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stuartpryer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi.

Take a look at the Roland Fantom 07. £1400.

Cheers

Stuart
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Kukulkan



Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot! I will have a look at them.
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voip
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also worth haing a look at the Korg M50. It is quite light in weight, and has a boot time of around 10 seconds.

.
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Kukulkan



Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, but the Korg M50 is really outdated. It was released in 2008 and has the sounds of the M3 (2007). My TR76 (to be replaced) is from 2006 and I really like to make a step forward Smile

As I wrote in my initial post, it should be modern or up to date (should be designed in the last 5 years).
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Kukulkan



Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After doing some more research, I limited all options to Korg Krome EX and Roland Fantom 07.

Both have longer startup time (around one Minute).

Due to testing sites and user reviews both have some sort of outdated instruments and sounds because they only sound like their older parents. But maybe there is currently a limit reached about how natural and good sounds can be - still matching to some sort of band or arrangement.

I'll give both of them a try before buy.

Thanks for all the hints and advice. Smile
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Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kukulkan wrote:
After doing some more research, I limited all options to Korg Krome EX and Roland Fantom 07.

Both have longer startup time (around one Minute).
My Fantom-07 boots up in under 20 seconds.

Kukulkan wrote:
Due to testing sites and user reviews both have some sort of outdated instruments and sounds because they only sound like their older parents. But maybe there is currently a limit reached about how natural and good sounds can be - still matching to some sort of band or arrangement.

The boards do have many older patches (which is good for when there's a sound in an older board you don't want to lose, or to duplicate the sounds of songs which used those older sounds, for example)... but they do not ONLY sound like their older predecessors.

Krome EX includes the sound of the 2012 Krome, but drums aside, the EX has 728 multisamples (including 44 Stereo multi-samples) vs. 583 multisamples (including 12 Stereo multi-samples), also making the new sample set about 200 mb bigger (4 GB vs 3.8 GB). The new sounds are enhanced grand piano, upright piano, and additional sounds in the categories of EDM, ethnic, and hollywood sound effects, based on the info at https://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/krome_ex/index.php

Although Roland Fantom-0 contains (or can have loaded into it) tons of legacy sounds, it also has many new generation sounds, first released in the Fantom in 2019. Elaborating on what someone posted on Gearspace:

-Bank A has 239 new sounds (i.e. those that appeared for the first time on Fantom)

-Bank B contains the first 459 tone list from the AX-Edge Keytar (which itself is not that old, but I don't know if they were necessarily all new to that model)

-Bank C has the 128 patches from the Integra-7 Synth Legends expansion.

-Bank D contains the 1109 SuperNatural Synth Tones from the Integra-7 / FA

-Bank E contains the 896 patches from the XV-5080.

-Bank CMN contains the remaining 837 tone list from the AX-Edge Keytar (those not in Bank B)

There are also SuperNATURAL Acoustic tones and a bunch of downloadable expansions, which are a mix of older and newer content.

But newer isn't always better, especially since sounds can be so subjective. While its true that newer sampled instruments tend to have more sample data than older ones, it's not always the case, and even when it is, a newer/larger sample of, for example, a Bosendorfer piano may not be better than an older sample of a Steinway, if you simply preferred the sound of the Steinway piano. It's also hard to compare across manufacturers because companies use different architectures. For example, a single sampled instrument sound (say, the sound of an acoustic guitar) can have 8 velocity layers in a Krome, and only 4 in a Fantom, even though the Fantom sound may be "newer." On the other hand, the Krome can only create sounds through sample playback, whereas the Fantom-0 uses a combination of sample playback and modeling (depending on the kind of sound). So for example, while a Krome piano sound can have 8 velocity layers rather than 4, the Fantom "SuperNATURAL" pianos add modeling, which arguably makes the velocity transitions more natural, even though there may be fewer samples of them to work with. (Though this is just to make a point about the technologies... personally neither of these boards would be my first choice for pianos.)

If you're looking to emulate the sounds of acoustic instruments, I wouldn't worry about which ones are newer, just find the ones you subjectively prefer.


Last edited by Scott on Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Kukulkan



Joined: 13 Mar 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for these details, Scott. Well appreciated Smile

I currently tend to try the Roland Fantom 07. Unfortunatelly, a few years ago before buying the TR76 I tried a Juno Stage and I was not happy with it (sent back to the shop). It was impossible to create a quick setup of three different sounds split to the keyboard in a time acceptable in a band practice. With the Korg it was much faster, needed less keyboard and button taps and (for me) was more intuitive. This is why I went to Korg. Maybe this is better now with the Fantom 07? I will give it a try.

Thanks!
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