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piano roll sequence editing Kronos
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Davegraham193



Joined: 06 Jun 2021
Posts: 24
Location: NH

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:38 pm    Post subject: piano roll sequence editing Kronos Reply with quote

Can anyone steer me to an inexpensive librarian/editor which I can USB directly from the Kronos and access note editing?
The Korg.USA editor is mostly for sounds and KARMA stuff. It does have a SEQ tab, but very limited options for editing songs, and no option for editing notes.
I'm looking to be able to highlight a note, and change the velocity for everything on that key (thinking about drums, for example). or change the note duration, without having to guess at the number of ticks it's on, but by dragging the end of the note where I want it... among other things.
I use SONAR which affords me extensive editing options by offering the piano roll view, but I'd like to access what's in the Kronos' memory, and not have to save to drive..open in SONAR, make edits, save to drive, load into Kronos, replace current song...etc.

Thanks!
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Koekepan
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Joined: 27 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the very best of my knowledge, there is no such tool. The closest equivalent would be exporting the MIDI, editing it separately, and then re-importing it, or using an external device or computer to act as the sequencer, leaving the Kronos to be the sound source and control surface.

For myself, this was why I ultimately never bought a Kronos, instead choosing (years ago) a Krome, surrounded by desktop synths that it drives through MIDI, and in the last year an Akai Professional Force. Both options offer better detail editing, especially of automation.
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Davegraham193



Joined: 06 Jun 2021
Posts: 24
Location: NH

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I do now... exporting and re-importing after editing. I have used the laptop to just drive the sounds, but I bought the Kronos to eliminate the laptop for live performances. The benefits of the Kronos, for me, outweigh the editing limitations.
One tries to get a MIDI as close as possible before even loading it into the keyboard, but, alas, when listening to recordings and video, there are invariably things to tweak. I have a lot, so I'll pick away at the ones I think I need to with the export/import method... until someone invents the golden editor.
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average_male
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Joined: 07 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wondering why Korg hasn't made an update to their Kronos OS/UI to allow editing of notes in songs.
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notes in songs can be edited. In Sequencer mode, the MIDI Event Edit screen on the Kronos allows individual notes, and other events (e.g. CC#, pitch bend, aftertouch, SysEx), to be altered in timing and, for notes; note value, velocity, and duration, and for those events to be cut, copied and inserted, with filtering of what is displayed, including a note range filter. It reads top to bottom, unlike a piano roll left to right reading order, and is argubly more versatile than a piano roll, but without the visual display of note placement on a scale.

Is it easy to use? Well, it depends. Perhaps less intuitive than a piano roll display, and the changes made don't get "written" into the song sequence until the MIDI Event Edit screen is "Done", so the MIDI Event Edit screen needs to be reloaded every time further changes need to be made, but it works.

This method of working with Sequencer data goes all the way through the Korg DNA, starting with the M1.

.
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average_male
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:
Notes in songs can be edited. In Sequencer mode, the MIDI Event Edit screen on the Kronos allows individual notes,...

Ah, thanks. Took a look and was able to find this. Think this UI is workable but perhaps not ideal for many. Appreciate the info and correcting me.
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Davegraham193



Joined: 06 Jun 2021
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Location: NH

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Editing notes with Korg, you need a notebook for each track...
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blazerunner
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Joined: 15 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos is grossly outdated at this point. When it debuted some features like piano roll editing were exclusive to certain brands but now everything put out these days has piano roll editing... it's just a staple feature (just like stems which the Kronos also lacks). With the Kronos which uses dated a dated sequencing system as the others have said you have to edit notes by the midi event editor.

When I asked this question myself some time ago many said it was hard and complained about it but I assure you it's quite a simple system because you can just press on the notes and edit the one you don't want or do the adjustments you need. You can also add in in new notes etc. I found it to be fairly simple. I use it all the time to get things super precise. Sometimes I might have a piano slightly off a tick and using the quantize feature won't help but the event editor can set it right where it needs to be.

You can press on the notes you see and it will play the note so you can audibly hear it and adjust accordingly. You can set the velocity as needed etc. The process looks intimidating but it's very simple. I actually use it for just what you want to do.

Sometimes I lay down a drum or piano with a note I want to soften because I pressed it too hard and I can just go find the note timestamp in the Midi event editor and adjust the velocity and set it right where it needs to be.

Now there is one thing I want to point out the Kronos again is dated and while it has the ability to do certain things it doesn't exactly do them smoothly. You can adjust certain notes but they don't always sound right once you do. I don't know if it's a bug or just the software the Kronos uses but it can create a problem.

I played around with this adjusting different velocities to match the same part of the song. Took out a note book (haha) and wrote down every time and parameter and recreated the exact same conditions and settings in the piano progression I originally played. It did not come out the same at all. It sounded like well... a souless Midi beat. That's something that has been fixed in later more modern software programs and gear in use today by adding in "humanization"options. On the Kronos you have to do it manually.

So you might have to be a bit creative when doing midi event edits. I find it best that when you adjust one note to slightly do adjustments for all the other notes in the bar to help it blend better. Sometimes you might have to move the other notes around just a tick but when you spend the time to "finesse" it a bit it should sound more natural... unless you are going for the "a computer made this" type of sound. Very Happy

P.S. don't ever bother with editing an audio track on the Kronos... trust me... just don't. If you ever have too just rerecord what ever you were planning to edit and save yourself the hair and the headache. Just pretend audio editing is a feature that doesn't even exists on the Kronos because in all honestly it shouldn't. It's that horrendous. It's basically just one giant wav file with no location or search features and whatever you edit or adjust you will end up breaking the entire song because the Kronos software doesn't retain the original integrity of the wav file. Whatever you edit the wav file will always be off by just that much unless you "finesse it" to make sure that your file stays in timing and in sync with the song which will cost you more time than it's worth.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me know, Blazerunner, how you go having an audio track on the MPC that spans multiple sequences (and can be larger than fits in RAM) and we'll talk about the audio track recording on the Kronos being outdated Wink To be honest, all standalone hardware these days handles audio tracks badly. I miss the hardware DAWs of the early to mid 2000s...
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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blazerunner
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
Let me know, Blazerunner, how you go having an audio track on the MPC that spans multiple sequences (and can be larger than fits in RAM) and we'll talk about the audio track recording on the Kronos being outdated Wink To be honest, all standalone hardware these days handles audio tracks badly. I miss the hardware DAWs of the early to mid 2000s...


Wink Well the MPC is made for recording audio it handles it well and it has the tools to properly edit it. It's kind of what it's famous for...but the Kronos "audio editing" wise it's kind of an afterthought on the Keyboard. The Kronos records audio beautifully I do that all day on it. It's just that "editing that audio in the sequencer is a really horrible process". This is just one of the many sequencer related things Korg could have given us an update for. Recording Audio with a sequencer these days is almost on par with midi. Software has really stepped up. The Kronos again is just stuck in yester year with no way to bring it to the modern day. It's a time capsule at this point.

The sequencers audio editing is my 2nd personal greatest complaint about the keyboard. My greatest complaint about the Kronos is the Sampler though and the idea that there is no sample software or program to drag and drop samples and assign them to keys. Like come on Korg. Even my 20 yo MPC2000XL has drag and drop software that can be used to map samples to the pads. The kronos with all it's might has nothing? I have to painstakingly map samples manually.

The sampler is another dinosaur feature of the Kronos that could have easily been updated by Korg that I don't bother with and when I mean I don't bother with it I mean I learned how to thoroughly use it and would rather use my Force since it has better sample management and a faster workflow. I only use the Kronos sampler if I want to turn a wav file into a midi file and mix it in the sequencer.

but I think there have been enough complaints about the sequencer and sampler over the years for Korg to have done something by now. They just don't care. knowing that if Korg drops a new flagship I'm always going to keep in the back of my mind that "this is going to be it" they're never going to update it so love it as it is or buy another brand. Because that's pretty much has been the Kronos Saga.

So nah I'm not going to compare the MPC to the Kronos because the MPC actually gets updated. The Kronos is locked in time. Razz
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím curious to hear your thoughts on what features the MPC has for working with audio tracks that the Kronos lacks?

Iím also surprised to hear youíre having issues with the Kronos mangling wag files; my understanding is they the Kronos generally doesnít edit the original wave file when editing, but rather creates new regions.

I had an MPC for around a year and really wanted to love it. I thought it would far surpass the capabilities of the Kronos for sampling and sequencing, and as a workstation overall, but was quite disappointed overall.

Blazerunner, you keep referring to all the ďnew technologyĒ in the MPC line and Iím curious as to what you mean by that? The MPC is certainly more modern looking, and does feel mostly nicer to work with from a UI perspective. And I quite like the workflow, in principal. But at the end of the day, the Kronos is running a Desktop-class Intel processor with RTAI and the audio engine running in the kernel. The Akai line is running on a mobile-phone class processor in user space. Unless Akai have solved the issue of computational complexity, there is *something* missing.

Now donít get me wrong, the audio track functionality on the Kronos could use a lot of improvement. But I donít think itís as bad as you make out, nor do I think the MPC is in an entirely different league.

On the MPC audio tracks are really nothing more than long samples. They canít span multiple sequences (so you canít, for example, record a single vocal take if your song has tempo changes). Many people havenít bothered using them because they donít offer anything more than the sampler does on the MPC line. Taking the same approach with the Kronos, you could use in-track sampling and have a similar experience to the MPC - with the added advantage that the Kronos can at least stream samples from the SSDÖ
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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Koekepan
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you may be confusing the respective missions of the Force and the MPC.

The MPC is designed around working with patterns. This is why beatmakers love it, and why if you want to do a whole song that isn't really pattern-based, the method is to extend your pattern into a long sequence. It doesn't have audio streaming yet and might never, because for jamming on a single pattern you don't need that.

The Force does have streaming, and will let you mix and match clips so that you can have, for example, a single clip delivering a whole long backing track while you mix and match other clips for the track, and then capture all of that in an arrangement.

If you want to polish a hip-hop beat, the MPC is your baby. If you want to compose a sonata, start with the Force.

The interface of the Kronos doesn't help you write whole passages in the sequencer because while you can pick what you want to edit and touch it up, you can't get a good overview on what you're editing so as to manage polyphonic voice leading or anything like that. The visual interfaces of both the MPC family and the Force (and the Krome, for that matter) are all much better for the job.

If all you ever want to do is nudge a single note back or forth, or tweak its velocity, the Kronos sequencer editing will serve you well enough.

Edited to add: forgot to mention that the difference between the CPU in the Kronos and the CPU in the MPC is not what it's painted. The Kronos 2 has a dual-core CPU with 1MB of cache split between the cores running at under 2GHz. The MPC range has a quad-core CPU running about the same clock rate, and with L2 cache putting it in the same ballpark of capacity. It's gilding the lily to call the Atom processor a desktop class CPU, because it was aimed at minimal desktops even back when it came out, while the ARM chip had the benefit of an additional few years of development. They're basically in the same range of power, with the edge arguably going to the ARM.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure who your reply was aimed at, but I agree: the Akai Force seems like a much better proposition as a competitor to the sequencing and audio recording capabilities of the Kronos overall. If there was a Force Keyboard, I would be very interested.

Many people have been waiting patiently for some of the features of the Force to come to the MPC, but to no avail - even for some features long promised for the MPC line, such as streaming.

To your point about the Kronos not showing a good visual representation of the song structure, I completely agree - and thatís the way I like it. I end up mapping out songs in power instead. For someone who does everything on the computer day-in, day-out, I find this approach refreshing.

Edit: And yes, youíre probably right about the ARM vs Intel processor in terms of overall power. However I think the Kronos software makes heavy use of the SSE2 instruction set and is generally optimised to run ďclose to the hardwareĒ, including running the sound engine in the kernel. Would be curious to know how optimised the Akai software is on the MPC, since it seems to share a lot of the same code with the desktop software?
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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Koekepan
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Joined: 27 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not an Akai Professional developer, so I really couldn't say. What I can say is that modern libraries and compilers are pretty good about cross-platform development and intelligent tweaks based on the underlying architecture. My understanding is that the code for the on-platform plugins is fairly well massaged, so that I can run eight channels of stereo plugins, a full complement of insert effects on each plus send effects and master effects, and I don't run out of grunt. Could you do better with a superturbonitrous firebreather of a desktop racer complete with LED fans on its liquid cooling? Sure, but of course that would outrun a Kronos too.

Either way I don't think that either the Force or the Kronos are underpowered.
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blazerunner
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím just going to say this because at this point when youíre derailing other peopleís threads to bash gear itís a problem and Iím just going to make this long so I donít ever have to do this again. You guys have no idea what you're talking about so respectfully please stop talking about MPC's like you do. Please stop quoting things that appear in your google search results. Respectfully please just stop already.

I owned the MPC-X, I owned MPC one, I own the AKAI Force currently, I have MPC 2.0 Software, I have an AKAI MPC 2000XL since 2001, I have a Korg Triton since 1999, I have a Korg Kronos since 2016. There is nothing anyone is going to tell me about an MPC or the Korg Kronos when it comes to the basic principles and limitations of its sequencer when I have been using it almost daily since I brought it in 2016. Again the Korg Kronosís sequencer is the main recording interface that I have used for all gear that Iíve owned for the past 6 years on a regular basis.

If I had posted music on here that I created using the Kronos even as a Kronos owner you would be reluctant to believe that the song was fully created on the Korg Kronos just by the level of sophistication. You would think the track was recorded with Pro-Tools or some such software. Trust me I am maxing out the Kronosís resources at this point in my time with it. Iím very well aware of what it can and cannot do. Which is why my question topics on this forum are mainly about ďworkaroundsĒ.

You shouldnít ever tell someone that they're confusing one product they own with another product they own when you've owned neither. The Force and the MPC are the same exact thing and they run on the same exact same software with slightly different programming. The MPC cannot record in the same style as the Force does because the MPC only has 16 pads and the Force has 64 pads. Again a different approach but same software. You know that you can swap and switch projects from the MPC into the Force right? If not that must be a shocker for you to hear since thatís not something you can Google.

The recording idea of using clips and arranging is a different approach to just using a basic MPC sequence but it is the same recording process because the Force uses the same basic MPC sequence to record. You press the same buttons and you look at the same screen. All a ďclipĒ does is put your sequence you just made into a grid on the Forces interface. Thatís it. On the MPC it puts your sequence onto a pad you can play back. Otherwise same thing when it comes to that part.

The Force does everything the MPC does but itís streamlined because of the 64 pads.
And the Clip Matrix. A clip is nothing but a sequence you made.

You can record complete and whole songs with vocals like any other recording on the MPC's and Force. It is why it cost so much and if want to know more about itís capabilities go visit Black Lion Audio and check out their MPC X mods. Why would a company that specializes in studio vocal chain and audio processing equipment want to offer an MPC audio modification package?

The MPC and Force have XLR inputs and a 48v phantom power for that reason. It has a whole vocal software suite on it. Just because the two videos you clicked on youtube show people making hiphop loops does not mean that's what the MPC's/Force is limited to because it is not. Stop stereotyping equipment. I could just as well say that the Kronos is for old fogies that want to play boring lounge music all day and do covers of 80ís pop/rock bands since thatís all I ever see people doing with it.

You guys just talk about this product bashing it but have no experience with the MPC and don't know what it's actually capable of doing. If you did you wouldnít be hear attacking it. Then you wonder why someone like me who owns and has experience with these things would find it annoying. The mpc is a midi production center (thus its name MPC) that you can use wave files with to build and orchestrate your sounds. The modern MPCís carry that same principle but with even more features now.

You can run whole CV rig off the MPC/Force. It's not FL Studio it's not pattern based. You have complete control over how you decide to approach and make your track. If want to loop bars itís because itís what you chose to do with it. That ďClipĒ in the Force can be whatever you choose for it to be.

The stuff you guys keep reciting are things that you do when you browse google and have zero experience with the actual product itself and I do mean zero. Thatís why I read your comments with a frown like where are these guys getting this stuff from?

For instance youíre even trying bash the MPC's CPU now and for what? It does all these incredible things and Akai only keeps adding more on to the device. The CPU has never been an issue and never will be because the MPC has a DAW and the MPC has Stems and the MPC has Updates. The Korg Kronos has neither and it gets neither because it's old and out of date and Korg abandoned it long ago.

You couldnít get a Kronos update out of Korg if you twisted the CEOís arm and as you noted yourself about the CPU thatís in the Kronos it is plenty capable of being updated. So why as a Kronos owner would you make an excuse for a company that clearly stopped caring about their own product years ago go on around bashing a successful and popular product whose company has had steady support and updates for it let alone actually listens too and interacts with their customers?

You guys keep trying to make the Korg Kronos an 11 year old keyboard based on a 16 year old keyboard the Oaysis sound like it's the bees knees still. This is not 2010 anymore. The Kronos is outdated get it through your gear heads already. Stop trying to make an old outdated Keyboard sound like it's new. The Kronos's sampler and sequencer cannot compete with any modern MPC PERIOD. It canít even compete with a DAW at this point. Itís like trying to make an Iphone1 sound like itís better than an Iphone13.

The Kronos is incapable of doing what an MPC can do and it never will be capable. Iím not like you dudes. I keep up with the times. Some new gear comes out that does amazing things Iím totally all for it. Iím not going to sit around with an elderly keyboard that shows its age more and more as I pretend like there arenít better things out there. With that said as far as Korg goes Iíve been with Korg for a long time.

Iíve owned so much of their stuff over the years but the Kronos has been a great disappointment for me. To the point that if Korg made a new flagship I would be reluctant to purchase it. Korg makes stuff then abandons it. In 2022+ you canít make a $3,000- $5000 keyboard and then not offer support or regular updates for it. Itís such a bad business practice. Here we all are with a keyboard that has areas that could use some serious upgrades and updates to keep it competitive and in sync with modern technology and the manufacturer would rather just scrap it and offer you a new $3,000- $5000 keyboard to go into debt over instead of providing free updates so that you get more life and use out of what you already purchased from them.

Itís all software. It wouldnít be hard to fix some features on the Sequencer and Sampler to make things streamlined and not so cryptic. It would kill korg to put in a search find feature on the Disk menu. It wouldnít kill Korg to add Daw integration, a sample manager, or drag and drop software for the Kronos. It wouldnít kill them to do any of those things. Korg just does not care. You have to understand that the MPC thatís out now did not start out that way. Akai added all those things to it over the years with simple free updates. New sound engines, effects, DAW integration all of that were ďFree Updates!Ē can you believe that.

You guys want to attack me for pointing out the obvious? Attack Korg. Theyíre the ones that abandoned us with these expensive keyboards and no updates. If they updated the sequencer I wouldnít be running to the Force to get it done right. Like if your wife took care of you than you wouldnít need a mistress. Korg just hasnít been doing their job.

Too busy focused on selling overpriced retro synths than to just do the bare minimum to keep their workstation owners satisfied my best guess.
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