|
Korg Forums A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world. Moderated Independently. Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
blazerunner Senior Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Posts: 277
|
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:06 am Post subject: Sequencer issues. Trouble with Solos & Mutes |
|
|
A bug or user stupidity?
Hello and happy holidays!
I'm working on a song on my Kronos that I admit I've been working on for a long time. It's technical and uses a good chunk of the Keyboards automation features. I have an issue however with the behavior of the Solo and Mutes.
I have quite a few automations going on throughout the song but I spaced them out as to not overwhelm the keyboard. I've run into an issue today where I wanted to "Mute" one Track and then a few measures in "Solo" another track and then unmuting the muted track and unsoling the solo'd track.
This is to do a lead in to the solo track and then once the solo is finished to return both tracks back to normal and join the rest of the song playing.
When I try this I can mute the track I want to mute and solo the other track I want to solo but when I end the Solo and end the Mute the muted track stays muted. The Midi Event editor shows that it's receiving the information to unmute the track but it still stays muted.
I tried to adjust the timing a bit so that the Solo and Mute tracks wouldn't Unsolo and Unmute at the same time just in case that was causing a hiccup but I've only been left with the same result.
I tried a different method of manually muting the track by using automation to slide the fader down to zero to mute it and then back up into the mix when the solo track ended. The result was a track that went from 100 to 0 but never went back up to 100 again even after inputting it.
Eventually I recorded a blank noise into the track section I wanted to mute. Not my ideal method but it got it done.
I'm still left with the issue of wondering what's going on with the Sequencer. This is in the ending section of the song where there are no other mutes,solo's or midi commands active.
To top it off I also have areas of the song with "Ghost muting". Tracks that mute and unmute that still retain that behavior even after the Midi EXCL data has been wiped. I spent a good chunk of Christmas combing through the Midi Event data trying to find the gremlins causing this phenomenon. I deleted all the Midi tracks one by one trying to isolate them with no result. I only got a result when I deleted all midi tracks for some reason.
I've ran into this behavior problem sometimes on other tracks where the Keyboard does not record Mute commands. It's only ever when using "Mutes" or that I run into this problem.
Not sure if it's a bug or my error at this point. Any ideas? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wocongming Full Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2020 Posts: 181
|
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: Sequencer issues. Trouble with Solos & Mutes |
|
|
blazerunner wrote: | A bug or user stupidity?
Hello and happy holidays!
I'm working on a song on my Kronos that I admit I've been working on for a long time. It's technical and uses a good chunk of the Keyboards automation features. I have an issue however with the behavior of the Solo and Mutes.
I have quite a few automations going on throughout the song but I spaced them out as to not overwhelm the keyboard. I've run into an issue today where I wanted to "Mute" one Track and then a few measures in "Solo" another track and then unmuting the muted track and unsoling the solo'd track.
This is to do a lead in to the solo track and then once the solo is finished to return both tracks back to normal and join the rest of the song playing.
When I try this I can mute the track I want to mute and solo the other track I want to solo but when I end the Solo and end the Mute the muted track stays muted. The Midi Event editor shows that it's receiving the information to unmute the track but it still stays muted.
I tried to adjust the timing a bit so that the Solo and Mute tracks wouldn't Unsolo and Unmute at the same time just in case that was causing a hiccup but I've only been left with the same result.
I tried a different method of manually muting the track by using automation to slide the fader down to zero to mute it and then back up into the mix when the solo track ended. The result was a track that went from 100 to 0 but never went back up to 100 again even after inputting it.
Eventually I recorded a blank noise into the track section I wanted to mute. Not my ideal method but it got it done.
I'm still left with the issue of wondering what's going on with the Sequencer. This is in the ending section of the song where there are no other mutes,solo's or midi commands active.
To top it off I also have areas of the song with "Ghost muting". Tracks that mute and unmute that still retain that behavior even after the Midi EXCL data has been wiped. I spent a good chunk of Christmas combing through the Midi Event data trying to find the gremlins causing this phenomenon. I deleted all the Midi tracks one by one trying to isolate them with no result. I only got a result when I deleted all midi tracks for some reason.
I've ran into this behavior problem sometimes on other tracks where the Keyboard does not record Mute commands. It's only ever when using "Mutes" or that I run into this problem.
Not sure if it's a bug or my error at this point. Any ideas? |
I think i know what it is. FIRST do this as an experiment...go LATER in the song(maybe at least 10 measures after and see if you can UNMUTE the track at that point. Now. if it actually UNMUTES later in the song i know what it is...
if it does UNMUTE, this is what happened and what you did...
When you record automation, you MUST have the preference set for BOTH Automation Only, and Auto Input. what happens is if youre set to lets say record Audio track 1, and at that time end up maybe accidentally changing ANOTHER track during that time, youll actual be saving that information in EITHER THE recorded track OR THE TRACK YOU ACCIDENTLY EDITED as an EXCL event. In other words, you might be looking somewhere for some kind of automation event like volume or something but it wont be there cause it may have saved that change on another track as an EXCL event which needs to be erased cause its interfering with the track. its a PAIN in da butt when you accidentally make changes on another track thats NOT set to record yet make changes on another track anyway. MAKE SURE YOU ONLY MAKE AUTOMATION CHANGES ON THE TRACK SET TO RECORD AT THAT TIME. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SeedyLee Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 1370 Location: Perth, Australia
|
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think wocongming is on the right track. Mutes and unmutes are stored in the sequencer as system exclusive MIDI events (except for audio tracks which use their own automation). SysEx messages are unchannelised, meaning that it is possible to record SysEx on one track that impacts another track. If you use MultiRec, SysEx events are recorded to the first track and n numerical order, not necessarily the track the SysEx impacts. This isn’t mentioned in the manuals.
The Kronos is pretty good at handling concurrent events across tracks, so I wouldn’t think that’s the case.
My advice would be to use Volume CCs to achieve the same thing, either through real-time recording or creating the appropriate events. Sysex can be a bit more of a hassle to work with. _________________ Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wocongming Full Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2020 Posts: 181
|
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2022 4:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
SeedyLee wrote: | I think wocongming is on the right track. Mutes and unmutes are stored in the sequencer as system exclusive MIDI events (except for audio tracks which use their own automation). SysEx messages are unchannelised, meaning that it is possible to record SysEx on one track that impacts another track. If you use MultiRec, SysEx events are recorded to the first track and n numerical order, not necessarily the track the SysEx impacts. This isn’t mentioned in the manuals.
The Kronos is pretty good at handling concurrent events across tracks, so I wouldn’t think that’s the case.
My advice would be to use Volume CCs to achieve the same thing, either through real-time recording or creating the appropriate events. Sysex can be a bit more of a hassle to work with. |
I think to put it more simply....
He should go to TRACK EDIT page,, go to the surrounding measures of the troubled area of the song. Check EVERY TRACK MIDI AND AUDIO in the audio and midi event drop down for EXCL events and delete all that you find. THAT SHOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM. did for me! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
blazerunner Senior Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Posts: 277
|
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello Guys
Thanks for your responses and advice. The trouble with the issue I'm having is that it doesn't seem to be triggered by those particular circumstances. That's what has me puzzled. I use Auto in and Automation only when I record my automation inputs.
I checked the current tracks and did a few test and the Midi info is being recorded to the correct track but the Kronos isn't executing it. What I was doing over the weekend was trying to isolate all the Excl tracks and CC# data. What I ended up was finding the correct data commands but the Kronos is ignoring them on playback. On the song I'm working on it won't even mute,solo, or unmute tracks anymore no matter what method I seem to use. It records new Midi data but doesn't respond to the commands.
I noticed that when I tested recording automation to the midi tracks nothing at all would execute. It would show the actions I selected in Midi Event editor but the sequencer would not play them. If I recorded automation to the audio tracks it would execute the initial request like a mute or Solo but then it would not execute the unmute or unsolo commands. If it makes a difference sometimes I use the Kronos's buttons to mute and unmute tracks to do this and sometimes I use the touch screen. I'm not sure if that makes a difference to how automation gets recorded but that's' what I do.
Only deleting all the midi files does it become responsive again. I went deleting the midi tracks one by one but encountered the same problems. There's 16 midi tracks and 16 audio tracks all getting solo and mute commands at certain points. I'm wondering if it's too many commands for the Kronos to handle and can't respond to any commands anymore. That's actually how it's acting for me. Like the keyboard is rejecting all the Midi action requests.
But what had me stumped is when I go to portions of the song where the Mute/Solo is active and the EXCL command are all there I'll delete it and check all the other midi channels and make sure they're clear of any commands also. However, when I go back to play the song the command is still being executed by the sequencer except no track is showing data for the command to be in the Event editor. It's weird. There's absolutely nothing telling the keyboard to execute the command anymore but it will do it anyway.
I found out it's also not limited to mute or solo. I have CC# commands for changing IFX on a single track to enhance the drum effect but when I wanted to change this I found that I was able to delete the CC# midi info but instead of wiping out the entire IFX swap it goes from the first IFX I was using into the 2nd IFX I selected but the 3rd and 4th IFX are removed from the Midi events but there is no CC# data for any of that or even EXCL data (or whichever terms that data records as in the Midi event editor I can't remember but it's not there).
I was using Midi tracks 15 and 16 to dump my automation commands into. So there's a bunch of Midi data on those tracks for automation at certain points in the song. When I felt it was overcrowding on certain sections I started using tracks 1 and 2.
Everything worked fine but when I started changing the song around and wanted to get rid of certain parts and add in stuff I started running into this issue.
This song seems push the old Kronos a bit. Making live adjustments to volume or ifx parameters, or going to certain points in the song really lags it. Actually I can't even use the toggle wheel half the time it doesn't respond to it. The Value switch works fine.
I'm stumped because I've spent hours scrolling through the uneventful event editor trying to catch these gremlins but I'm shrugging my shoulders at this point. Something in one of those tracks has to be throwing it off. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bpoodoo Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Posts: 429 Location: Ding Dong, TX
|
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
A shot in the dark, but you might check that in GLOBAL P1:MIDI that Enable Control Change and Enable Exclusive are both On. _________________ bpoodoo
Triton Extreme 88 w/MOSS
"We all move on, like centuries and doves." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
blazerunner Senior Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Posts: 277
|
Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey guys!
Thanks for the help and advice. I think I found the problem. For some reason at the end of my song there was a whole chain of EXCL inputs. I don't know where they came from how they got there. It was at the of the song on a track that wasn't even being utilized. I deleted all of them and the automation seems to be working okay again. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|