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Trinity Plus Microtune-Transpose-Load OS 2.41...Strange!!!

 
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korg_nikos
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Trinity Plus Microtune-Transpose-Load OS 2.41...Strange!!! Reply with quote

Hi to all.

Apologies for this huge post but i need to describe all issues in detail. Please to anyone who thinks that could help... try to read it carefully.

Recently i checked a global setting of my Trinity Plus. I have also installed PBS + 2chips option (I am mentioning that in order to let you know about the expansions that are installed in my Trinity)

Just to let you know, this Trinity was not a Trinity Plus from the factory.
I had the Keyboard and then purchased Solo-Tri and PBS-Tri separately.

Anyway when i first installed those options i loaded OS 2.41 making also an ENTER+0 Reset for the SRAM chips to be initialized.

Everything went well and Trinity displayed Korg Trinity plus with PBS-Tri in the expansions drop list below.

I have loaded my set and my samples and the Trinity was 100% ok.

The above was just for your information in order to know the history of the instrument.

Now lets go to my issue:
I have noticed something that has to do with the Global setting of "Midi Position" This parameter can be set either to "Post KBD" or to "PreTG".
I use scales in my playing. What i mean is that i am doing microtune programming user scales which i then use into programs.

Now if somebody uses User Scales and needs to make a transpose he has two options. Options are described below in CASE 1 and 2 mentioning how they should normally work.

CASE 1.Transposing having Midi Position to POST KBD: With this option the Key reference of the scale is not transported accordingly meaning that if you transpose (+1 for example) and have POST KBD selected, the Trinity will not be able to play the same microtuning scale correctly from the new tone because the Key Reference is not affected by the Global Transpose. In order to do so having the Midi Position to "POST KBD" I will have to manually go to Program Edit (Page 1, Basic, Scale) and transpose manually the Scale key of the Program as well (If for example it was set to "C" in the program's scale edit page i would need to make it "C#" in order to maintain the same scale after transpose. If i need to transport +3 then i would need to manually set the key from "C" to "D#"

CASE 2.Transposing having Midi Position to PRE TG. This is a more convenient setting for transposing. The Key reference of the microtuning scale is transported automatically following the Global Transpose. This means that if i transpose a Microtuned Program the Key Reference transposed accordingly without the user to navigate to Program's Scale Edit and manually change the Key like above. This setting allows the user to have the same micotuning from all tones by just transposing from Global Menu.

The above is HOW Midi Position is supposed to operate.

--OFFTOPIC: Have in mind that Triton Extreme had a similar issue to the one that i am going to describe below but only in EXB MOSS related Programs and Combis that were related to those programs. Triton Extreme Midi Position settings are referred as POST and PRE MIDI (slightly different terminology). There was a bug WHEN Post Midi was selected because this made the Transpose to be performed not in Semitonal steps but in Tonal ones. Even when the user wanted Transpose +/-1, +/-3, +/-5....he could not do that. I had reported that to Korg and several months later they released Triton Extreme Version 1.06 which fixed the bug.

I remember then, that i had checked my Trinity Plus for the same bug (i didn't have the PBS installed at that time) and it was ok. PCM-ROM based microtuned programs were transposed ok and also Solo-Tri based microtuned programs were transposed ok. When i say ok i mean like in the cases 1 and 2 i described above.

I have to mention that i also have a second Trinity in which i have a Moss-Tri installed and Transposing of Microtuned programs works ok as well (like in cases 1 and 2 according to user's selection) to both PCM Rom based and Moss Tri related Programs.

Yesterday i was checking some sounds to my Trinity with the Solo-Tri Board. I have to mention that when i had installed PBS and the 2 SRAM chips (7 months ago) i did not notice what i am describing in this post. To be honest i didn't check. I had only checked that the SRAM and PBS were recognized by the instrument. Anyway yesterday I checked some sounds and did some Transposes. What i noticed was that the PCM based microtuned sounds were transposed ok maintaining the scale (while Pre TG enabled) but the Solo-Programs did not. More specifically PRE-TG or POST KBD Midi Position settings didn't affect the Solo-Tri Microtuned Programs at all!! The scale was not maintained after Global Transpose because none of the settings cause the Reference Key of the scale to be automatically transposed at the same time with the Global Transposing. It was like that both settings (PRE-TG and POST KBD) operated the same way. The strange thing is that this happened only to Solo-Tri programs and of course to Combis that included a Solo-Tri program.

What i did after in order to check all possibilities was to reload OS 2.41.
When i did that (using New Floppies and Fresh OS Copies...downloaded at the time from official Korg Sites) everything was displayed ok and i got the message that OS loading was completed succesfully.

After reloading the OS (1st time downloaded from KORG USA site) I have noticed something really strange...the instrument had maintained my Patches loaded even after update!!!!!???!!! I mean despite the new OS loading my Patches (Programs, Combis) were still there without me reloading them. I have also downloaded the same version from KORG UK. I have made another 2 floppies (new as well and not the same with the previous) and tried to reload the OS. Everything completed ok with not even a single error message but after that my Patches were still there. It was like the new OS loading was not affecting the patches at all. Of course neither USA nor UK OS's updates fixed the Transpose/Microtuning issue

Initially i thought that my Trinity didn't read the OS at all because even after doing the procedure (Enter + Reset while switching on, floppy change in the middle of procedure, and so on...) and even after the automatic restart that Trinity does by itself in the ending of an OS update, my Programs and Combis were still there. What i did afterwards was to manually get rid of my set. So i held Enter+0 while turning the instrument on. This caused my patches to be kicked out. So after that i had my Trinity with A,B,C,D (Remember i have PBS and 2 SRAM Chips) and S banks reading InitProgxxx.

After that and without loading any sets i checked Microtuning and Transpose again. The problem was still there. PCM based programs operated ok in both POST KBD and PRE TG but Solo base programs did not.

I then reloaded my set. I did it in sucess but still Transpose/Microtuning issue for Solo Programs was there.

Then i thought that a Manual Reset with Enter+0 was not the safe way to be sure that the instrument would actually read the new fresh OS on top of the previous because 2.41 Version was loaded already before doing the fresh 2.41 update. So i thought that in order to be sure that the instrument actually updates the 2.41 OS with the fresh copy, i would need first to change to 3.1.1 (Version for Trinity V3) and then return back to the fresh 2.41.

Remember...before doing so i had my set reloaded by me after Enter+0 wiped out my patches. After updating to OS 3.1.1 the instrument was reset reading Trinity OS Version 3.1.1 but without mentioning "Plus". This is totally normal because 3.1.1 Version does not recognize Solo-Tri. Version 3.1.1 had also initialized all Banks as it should do. (Remember that 2.41 didn't do that causing my set to be still in the instrument even after OS update).

After that i reloaded my set again. S patches were ignored of course since 3.1.1 was loaded but A,B,C and D banks were properly loaded with my patches. After that I reloaded OS 2.41 again in order to be sure that the Instrument will read it and change from 3.1.1 back to 2.41. OS 2.41 was succesfully loaded, the instrument displayed OS Version 2.41 and Plus but my set was for once more still there...(except from S patches which were ignored from previous loading under OS 3.1.1) I have repeated the procedure using Both US and UK official fresh copies of 2.41 but both leaded to the same result. Of course Transpose/Microtuning of S programs issue was still there.

I have tried to run the Test Mode and everything was ok. At the start of the Test Mode procedure (ENTER+5) I got the additional info that the instrument has MOSS VERSION 10. (Just to let you know MOSS VERSION is displayed in both cases where Solo Tri or Moss Tri are installed. Solo-Tri may be called Solo but it is actually a (M)ulti (O)sclilator (S)ynthesis (S)ystem and that's why it is called Moss.)

I have 2 friends who have Trinity Plus and Trinity Plus + PBS including 2 S-RAM chips respectively. I have contacted both of them for reference and they told me that this Microtuning/Transpose Issue does not exist to their instruments and everything works ok. They also sent me their sets to try them out using the very exact reference in case that some other Global Parameter in my set caused my Trinity not to correspond correctly. I loaded their sets but again i had the same issue.

Conclusion: Possible Reasons for the above issue

1. Rather unlikely but what i think is that SRAM chips or the PBS itself caused this Microtuning/Transpose after the installation in the instrument. PBS Sample based sounds however are working ok (like PCM Rom).

2. Solo-Tri does not co-operate correctly as far as Midi Position Setting is concerned. I have to mention that I have never dealt with any problems with my Solo-Tri Board. Perhaps the S/N version of the Solo-Tri I have is old and does not allow the Midi Position to be set correctly. Perhaps this issue is not possible to be corrected with Software updates and needs Hardware Update (Chip replacement(s) on the board). Perhaps it is something that has to do with that Moss Version 10 display in the beginning of the TEST MODE.

3. My Trinity Motherboard is an old S/N version which does not allow the Midi Position to be set correctly when using a Solo-Tri board. Perhaps like above this issue is not possible to be corrected with Software updates and needs Hardware Update (Chip replacement(s) on the board).

Does anyone have a clue?

Please help me to determine the reason for which all the above happen.

PS. Perhaps i will try to Transfer the Solo-Tri board to my second Trinity (Currently V3) and check. I will also fit the Moss-Tri to the Current Plus and do the check again. What i need to avoid is (if after the switch both work ok) to uninstall PBS from the current Plus. Apart from the fact that it is not so easy to uninstall those 2 S-RAM chips from the Motherboard I need to maintain both PBS-Tri ando Solo-Tri installed to the same instrument. The reason is that i have sets that combine Programs based to Solo-Tri and PBS-Tri.
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello.
To be quite honest with you, your post is FAR too long to even understand what your problem is.

Can you please just tell me what is not working in a single sentence. For example, are you saying that User Scales do not work for SOLO sounds when you use the Transpose in GLOBAL mode or within the actual Program/COMBI edit pages.

Is that all your trying to say here ?

Regards
Sharp.
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korg_nikos
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sharp.

I am sorry once more for this long post but i wanted to describe all in full details. However i feel that i have to say that my post is not "too long to understand." Perhaps it is quite long for someone to read it...i agree on that but if you read it all and pay attention you will get the picture. Perhaps it is not so easy for a musician that plays only on Western Scales but i have at least tried to explain it in full details

Anyway the major problem is that when using User Octave Scales in a Solo program and need to transpose (by the Global Page), the User Scale does not follow the transpose automatically. The result of this is that i will have to re-edit the User scale after transpose (Scale Key) in order to have the same scale from the new tone. This is normal for Post KBD but it shouldn't be happening in Pre TG setting.

I have explained above what i 've done to overcome this issue but nothing worked. It was also strange that after several OS (2.41) loadings my Trinity was not initialized!

As i have written i have 1 Trinity Plus with PBS and 1 Trinity V3. My V3 works ok in terms of User Scales and Transpose. I switched the boards between those Trinities but again the Solo Programs using User scales were not transposed correctly.

This makes me think that the Solo-Board has some kind of fault.


Last edited by korg_nikos on Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Timo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid I can't comment. Unfortunately I've never used anything other than the standard western scale, nor Post KBD or PreTG settings - I tend to bounce things live or record internally within the Trinity sequencer rather than control them via external MIDI.

I'm not even sure what microtuning is. I take it it is for middle-eastern scales or similar?
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korg_nikos
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem Timo,

Thanks anyway.


Last edited by korg_nikos on Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:12 am; edited 3 times in total
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Nor
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I follow NIKOS again I still use Trinity Plus, I encounter the same detailed problem as NIKOS described above.

I remember we (ME and NIKOS) reported a bug transposing with MOSS bank of Triton Extreme then KORG posted a fix of the O.S.

I only hope they listen to us again, we still fall in love with those old gears such Trinity Plus!

Pleas KORG would you like to fix that? Thank you so much in advance.
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korg_nikos
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nor, this is not the same case.

I have witnessed 2 Trinity Plus instruments that do not have this issue and operate normally in Pre TG Mode. It is not software's update issue. Either my Solo-Tri has a small fault or it is not a fault at all and some Solo-Tri Versions work this way.

If you press Enter+0 while booting up, apart from initializing you will also read the Moss Version of the board. Perhaps some versions did not support what i described above.

Anyway Nor i am pretty sure that this is not the same case as in Extreme because i have seen Trinities Plus working ok under 2.41 Version.

I will try another Solo-Tri and i will let you know
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korg_nikos
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timo wrote:
I'm not even sure what microtuning is. I take it it is for middle-eastern scales or similar?



Let me give you a short example. Imagine that you have to play the following scale scale which is just a small example as there are many variations. The scale goes: A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A'
Notes B and F# do not have an equal tempered pitch. Their pitch varies according to what music you play (Arabic, Turkish, Byzantine etc)

In order to be able to tune the instrument according to Arabic, Turkish or Byzantine music theory you will have to negatively detune B and F# by 50 or 33 or 66 cents of a semitone. Those values occur after converting minimum intervals of Arabic, Turkish and Byzantine music to the 1200cents per octave System.

Minimum Interval of a Western Scale is one semitone. There are 12 Semitones in one octave.

Minimum interval of an Arabic Scale is a quarter tone (half semitone). There are 24 quarter tones in one octave.

Minimum Interval of a Turkish scale is one "Turkish Comma". According to Turkish Music Theory it is not possible to convert a minimum Turkish interval to an Integer number of cents. According to the same theory there are 53 Turkish Commas in one octave and 9 Turkish commas in one Tone. As you realize 1 Turkish Comma equals to 1200/53 = 22.641 Semitone cents OR 1 Turkish Comma equals to 200/9 = 22.222222222... semitone cents. This means that you will never hear a Turkish musician to play a Clear 100% equally tempered Flat or Sharp Note.

Minimum Interval of a Byzantine Scale is one "Byzantine Comma". There are 72 such commas in an octave meaning that each one equals to 1200/72 = 16,66666 Semitone cents. So as you realize there are 6 different tonal values within a Western Semitone.

All three above music systems have at least the same Harmonic Structure of the Western System but as far as Melodic Structure is concerned you may easily realize that Byzantine is the most detailed and rich one.

As you realize we have to microtune our instrument in order to play those scales.

If you need an example check the following link. I use a scale in which I detune 4 notes to play that song. In 2:17 i transpose and the Scale is maintained. That was not possible with an F bank sound of a Triton Extreme fitted with Moss that ran on 1.05 that's why Korg issued 1.06.

My Trinity Plus has also this issue right now but as i have written this is not something to be fixed by an OS Update. I have witnessed 3 Trinities that operate ok under 2.41 OS Version.

LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_tZkmzDI7I&feature=PlayList&p=85E000B379D3DF0B&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=15[/code]
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi korg_nikos

This is a long shot.... The SOLO option had a firmware chip on-board that went through a few revisions. Maybe you have an old firmware. It's not something you can update through software and your Trinity, I believe the actual chip needs to be replaced.

Far as I know you can get the Trinity to display is SOLO revision numbers in Test mode.


Image linked from http://www.zahermusic.com

Regards
Sharp.
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pegnafroy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nor wrote:
... I have tried to run the Test Mode and everything was ok. At the start of the Test Mode procedure (ENTER+5) I got the additional info that the instrument has MOSS VERSION 10. (Just to let you know MOSS VERSION is displayed in both cases where Solo Tri or Moss Tri are installed. Solo-Tri may be called Solo but it is actually a (M)ulti (O)sclilator (S)ynthesis (S)ystem and that's why it is called Moss.) ...


Here is the version of the korg_nikos's solo tri firmware.

Can't see the image that Sharp posted above. Hope this help

Besos.

F.
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korg_nikos
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Trinity Plus Microtune-Transpose-Load OS 2.41...Strange! Reply with quote

Dear Sharp...copy from my first post. I have mentioned that already.

korg_nikos wrote:

Conclusion: Possible Reasons for the above issue

1. Rather unlikely but what i think is that SRAM chips or the PBS itself caused this Microtuning/Transpose after the installation in the instrument. PBS Sample based sounds however are working ok (like PCM Rom).

2. Solo-Tri does not co-operate correctly as far as Midi Position Setting is concerned. I have to mention that I have never dealt with any problems with my Solo-Tri Board. Perhaps the S/N version of the Solo-Tri I have is old and does not allow the Midi Position to be set correctly. Perhaps this issue is not possible to be corrected with Software updates and needs Hardware Update (Chip replacement(s) on the board). Perhaps it is something that has to do with that Moss Version 10 display in the beginning of the TEST MODE.

3. My Trinity Motherboard is an old S/N version which does not allow the Midi Position to be set correctly when using a Solo-Tri board. Perhaps like above this issue is not possible to be corrected with Software updates and needs Hardware Update (Chip replacement(s) on the board).


Anyway I have replaced the board with an older Moss Version 07 which fixed the issue.
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korg_nikos
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some additional info:

Solo-Tri of Moss Version 03 operates fine as well.

So what i have experienced so far testing several Solo-Tri Boards of Moss Versions 03, 07 and 10 is that Versions 03 and 07 operate just fine while Version 10 does not maintain Scales after transpose.

If Version 10 is newer than Version 07 and Version 07 is newer than Version 03 then this means that the most updated version had that issue.

For your information i have only tested Solo Boards of Versions 03, 07 and 10.
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Adri



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

korg_nikos wrote:
Some additional info:

Solo-Tri of Moss Version 03 operates fine as well.

So what i have experienced so far testing several Solo-Tri Boards of Moss Versions 03, 07 and 10 is that Versions 03 and 07 operate just fine while Version 10 does not maintain Scales after transpose.

If Version 10 is newer than Version 07 and Version 07 is newer than Version 03 then this means that the most updated version had that issue.

For your information i have only tested Solo Boards of Versions 03, 07 and 10.


Bravo Nikos,that's all true and you explained that problem for version 10 very well.Thanks
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Adri



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

korg_nikos wrote:
Some additional info:

Solo-Tri of Moss Version 03 operates fine as well.

So what i have experienced so far testing several Solo-Tri Boards of Moss Versions 03, 07 and 10 is that Versions 03 and 07 operate just fine while Version 10 does not maintain Scales after transpose.

If Version 10 is newer than Version 07 and Version 07 is newer than Version 03 then this means that the most updated version had that issue.

For your information i have only tested Solo Boards of Versions 03, 07 and 10.


Hello Nikos,I purchased one Trinity Plus and it comes with the Solo Tri version 10 (very bad).Did you find any fix for this problem?Thanks
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SynthfulDwarphus



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting old topic/thread that has been recently necro'ed!

A few comments:

1) The Prophecy ROM is the topic of many threads because it was revised by Korg to significantly improve critical performance issues such as MIDI timing and possibly more, but I'm not sure any of these Prophecy issues/improvements/ROM versions relate/correlate to the SOLO-TRI for Trinity and/or its ROM versions (since, for example, the Trinity has a different model main CPU/MCU that handles MIDI data than the Prophecy's, so MIDI timing might never have been an issue). Also, early Prophecy units did not have socketed firmware/OS ROM chips, so changing ROMs on those non-socketed units is problematic. I believe all SOLO-TRI boards have socketed ROMs, so changing or erasing and reburning ROMs should be possible.

2) I dont know if there was, or currently is, any repository of SOLO-TRI ROM dumps or discussion/information on different ROM revisions, but that would certainly be helpful. There may be some old Trinity and/or Prophecy user group websites or archives available (like through Archive.org Way Back Machine or archives of old Yahoo groups) that has some of this "lost" info available.

3) Does Korg itself (Japan, UK, Italy, USA, etc., individually) have any info such as SOLO-TRI ROM revision history documentation or even ROM dumps that they would be willing to share?

4) Is anyone with the three SOLO-TRI ROM versions "03", "07", and "10" mentioned in this thread able to upload dumps of those ROM versions?

5) The synth ROM database website DBWBP at https://dbwbp.com/index.php/9-misc/37-synth-eprom-dumps indeed has a "Korg Trinity" ROM dump that is actually a SOLO-TRI dump, but I can't open the included text file to see if there's any version info.

6) The SOLO-TRI ROM chips are covered with stickers printed with numbers that are likely ROM version numbers. It would be helpful to have those numbers cataloged. I'll try to do so eventually with my two SOLO-TRI boards, one manufactured in 1995 and one in 1997, evidenced by the date codes on various chips thereon. However, I think the ROM stickers on my particular two boards bear the same numbers, and I'd have to install both and check version numbers in diagnostic mode.

7) There might be mention of SOLO-TRI ROM versions in SOLO-TRI installation documentation (Trinity options were all service center installed, so this documentation was never made available to users, and unfortunately I'm not aware of any scans ever being posted online for any Trinity option installations). There may also be some Korg service bulletins regarding SOLO-TRI ROM versions, but again, i haven't seen any uploaded anywhere. I don't believe Trinity service manual, which is readily available online, discusses SOLO-TRI ROM versions.

8 ) This topic probably warrants its own new thread with a title referencing more directly "SOLO-TRI ROM VERSION INFO" so more SOLO-TRI users see it, therefore I may post such a new thread to attract more involvement/info.

That's all for now!
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